Can you give your opinion on this tree's health?

DanielSon

DanielSon

Location
US
Can you give your opinion on this tree\'s health?

Hey yall!

A client of mine has an oak in her back yard that she says is 85+ years old.

The tree is located in Atlanta GA so it is hot and humid.

A year ago she noticed some yellow "ooze" comming from the trunk/bark. She called a "tree guy" (non-certified) to come out and treat this area.

From her description, she said that he "removed" bark and then applied spray-kote.

Bassed off the photos, I am assuming that there was some decaying material in the affected area with loose bark. I am assuming that he removed the bark in order to clean the edges for them to heal.

I am planning on visiting the site by sunday, but before I do, I wanted to ask:

1. In your opinion, how long is this tree "safe".

2. Does anyone know of a proven method to inhibit decay in a humid climate.

I do not focus on PHC so when situations like this come up, more opinions are better.

I personally think that the tree is safe for 2 years. From 2-5 years I would guess that the decay may be starting to get "sketchy", and from 5-10 years it would be starting to get into the dangerous time frame. Past 10 years it would definatly be dangerous.

These approxomations are only based of personal observations of decay rate in this climate.

I am going to copy the client on this post as well.

Anyone have any thoughts?

http://s590.photobucket.com/albums/ss342...rrent=tree3.jpg

http://s590.photobucket.com/albums/ss342...rrent=tree2.jpg


Thanks yall


Dainielson
 
Re: Can you give your opinion on this tree\'s healt

From your description and photo it sounds like the initial "ooze" is the sign of a bacterial or Phytophthora (fungal) infection. Sometimes a way to determine whether it's fungal or bacterial is to smell the ooze. If it's really acrid (swampy or sour) smelling, it's probably bacterial.

There isn't away to stop wood decay such as this. Once the bacterium or fungus is in the wood you cannot get it out. If you want to prolong the tree's life then the best thing to do is to prevent stress (mulching and watering especially). You could apply paclobutrazol (Cambistat) to slow down the canopy growth so the tree would reallocate it's resources to healing and root health. The white patch in the middle looks like another fungus has also moved in and is starting to decay the wood too. With something like this really keep an eye on canopy dieback, how much new growth it puts on and leaf size, this will help you gauge how the tree's coping with the wound and infection.

If it's bacterial then it's probably a case of Wet Wood & Slime Flux, which can be unsightly, but doesn't really hurt the tree. However, it does keep the wound open and vulnerable for other pathogens to move in, but this does not mean you should seal it, just let it seep.

It's difficult to say how long the tree will be safe without seeing the environment. It's also difficult to diagnose a problem without seeing the whole tree, such as the canopy. How long it will remain structurally sound depends on the type of tree. You said it was an oak, but in the south you have water, willow and laurel oaks that don't handle decay very well. If it's from the red or white oak group then I'd be a little more optimistic. I've seen water and willow oaks self-prune 10" branches that looked perfectly healthy in Athens, so I'm always on the over-cautious side with those two.

I hope that helps.
 
Re: Can you give your opinion on this tree\'s healt

Yeah.... that definitely helps.

Thanks!.

Most likely I will go out to the site tomarrow. (friday oct 2nd.) When I am there, I am going to try to shoot a high-def video and upload it.

Would you be able to view it if I do?
 
Re: Can you give your opinion on this tree\'s healt

An important consideration is the potential targets in the potential fall zone, and the percentage of time such targets occupy it.

As RBS was getting at, all oaks are not created equally. Find out the species, and/or post pics of leaf, bark, overall shape.

What was the initial cause of the damage. Did it die back/slough off on its own with a follow up by the other guy. Perhaps you should call him to find out what he knows/ saw initially.

Also, consider the property management plans. If new plantings are desired in the area, or a new building, or nothing will happen in the area, the property owner will have different consideration to go with the "safety" estimation on the tree in their longer term planning.

Are there kids on the property? Adults can handle staying away from the tree, whereas kids will be more likely to "forget" and play beneath it.

Any current crown dieback. Did the other guy do any canopy work? History has lots of information that may help.

Best of luck with it.
 
Re: Can you give your opinion on this tree\'s healt

A little education Read and Southsound. The same one I got when I moved south from PA. The oaks down here are not like the oaks up north. Although both of your comments are accurate and need to be considered, decay happens at an unusually fast rate here and the predominate species of oak in the Red Oak group is either Water Oak or Willow Oak, both of which seem to be rather poor compartmentalizers. Add to that the exceedingly high incidence of Hypoxolon Canker and you have a bad situation get much worse. I have seen Water Oaks die and then crumble within 9 months. It really is a case of doing thorough instections in many cases.

Daniel:
I do agree with Read and South's comments and would also add girdling roots and/or construction damage into the mix. The construction damage could be as much as 10 years old from the looks of your photos. I also don't believe the tree is 85 unless the owner has some positive documentation of that. You may want to get in touch with the Georgia Arborists Association. If you need the number, PM me.One of the members has just gotten the Tree Radar system that can give a very accutrate picture of exactly what is going on inside that tree. I will warn you, that testing does not come cheap.
 
oldoakman,

I knew of a tree guy who had the tree radar about a year ago.

I had actually called the tree radar company but was not really jazzed at the fact that they would have charged me $85 or more just to decode what their sensors were picking up.

I think this guy was charging around 600-800 for a diag.

I am going to pm you.
 
Re: oldoakman,

the yellow oozing sounds like alcoholic flux--not slime flux. see attached for treating that, and sinclair p 384

no radar needed on this one; just use a hammer to listen for hollow sounds. trim dead bark to the right and above and below with NO damage to living bark. then measure the width of the wound and the circ of the tree.

willow oaks here in nc MUCH better at dealing with decay than water oak but both do much better if roots are not abused--yes mulch and water. big buttresses showing so girdling roots unlikely.

black streaks are new infection should be drenched with subdue fungicide.

lets see crown--reduction may well be advisable.

the 2-5-10 year timeline sketchy--totally depends on care etc.
 

Attachments

Re: oldoakman,

[ QUOTE ]
the yellow oozing sounds like alcoholic flux--not slime flux. see attached for treating that, and sinclair p 384

black streaks are new infection should be drenched with subdue fungicide.

lets see crown--reduction may well be advisable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can clarify this for me.

If the ooze is created by a yeast rather than a bacterium should they be treated differently as far cleaning out the infected bark to uninfected tissue? Either way if you don't sanitize your tool between each cut you're just spreading the infection. How can a person determine whether it's one or the other without sending it off to be cultured? Is one infection usually organism specific, such that you wont find them together? They both like the same growing condition, which is wet and cool.

Why are you recommending Subdue MAXX (metalaxyl-M)? Are you sure it's a Phytophthora? Phytophthora spp. are no longer considered true fungi, so the mode of action would not work if it's not a Phytophthora species, which I don't think it is. Most yeasts are ascomycetes or basidiomycetes, which also require different fungicides.

Plus, most Phytophthora infections have a red hue to the streaking, not black. Look up information on Sudden Oak Death (Phytophthora ramorum) or Jarrah Dieback (P. cinnamomi) for photos when the bark is peeled back. If it was initially caused by a Phytophthora fine, but what's causing the black now is not Phytophthora. In culture Phytophthora spp. are white. Phytophthora infections also don't smell yeasty or acrid, they're more earthy smelling. In conditions where the smell is acrid there's anaerobic respiration going on therefore the pH is really low, which Phytophthoras do not like grow in.

I wouldn't recommend crown reduction because that's be removing the sugars and other photosynthates the tree needs in order to heal. I think a paclobutrazol (Cambistat) treatment would be better way to go.
 
Re: oldoakman,

Maybe you can clarify this for me.
If the ooze is created by a yeast rather than a bacterium "

&Who said that? Sinclair and other sources say it is a cocktail; no one pathogen, just pressure popping the bark off the wood.

"if you don't sanitize your tool between each cut you're just spreading the infection."

& only cutting dead tissue, no barrier breaking and no spreading. right?

Plus, most Phytophthora infections have a red hue to the streaking, not black. Look up information on Sudden Oak Death (Phytophthora ramorum) or Jarrah Dieback (P. cinnamomi) for photos when the bark is peeled back. If it was initially caused by a Phytophthora fine, but what's causing the black now is not Phytophthora.

&not sure about that color thing; so many species--i've had black ooze cultured as phytop, but yes often labs are not sure. probably better just to hit the lesions with a propane torch, and remove the adjacent soil to remove those resources.

Phytophthora infections also don't smell yeasty or acrid, they're more earthy smelling. In conditions where the smell is acrid there's anaerobic respiration going on therefore the pH is really low, which Phytophthoras do not like grow in.

&yes all true--see suppresion of decay pathogen by bacteria in pic on page 36-- but we are talking about 2 diseases, the initial yellow ooze that was treated a year ago, and now the chronic black lesions. right? Like chinese armies the diseases advance in waves.

I wouldn't recommend crown reduction because that's be removing the sugars and other photosynthates the tree needs in order to heal.

&yes mostly true but the tree does not need ALL that food; reduction only removes a little of it, plus plus that food comes at a cost of supporting the branch, with an impaired circulation, plus the op said it was in decline already, plus most importantly there is a strength loss/risk issue here that us field personnel have to deal with.

& might want to rethink recommending against reduction of load in impaired trees; if one fails later the arb might say "but they said not to reduce", and the plaintiff's attorney's fickle finger of fate might point at you and your employer.
shocked.gif


&see the pic on page 33; that tree had about the same % circ dead, and it was totaled (but it was in a pkg lot so pretty strained)

I think a paclobutrazol (Cambistat) treatment would be better way to go.

&Question is would it go anytwhere?? with half the bark missing from the trunk, maybe uptake would be a tad impaired. rainbow folks say not to use where uptake sucks, which seems rather obvious...better to trunk drench with phosphite or a fungicide that can also control fungus-like organisms like P..
 
Re: oldoakman,

"better to trunk drench with phosphite .."

This has proved to be one of the best management approaches in our worst areas of advancing Phytophthora (Western Australia), although its effectiveness on established infections within individual trees is sketchy at best, a lot of other factors at play...many that other posters have well covered.

Personally I would steer clear of other fungicides and perhaps investigate what products are available in your area that include Pseudomonas fluorescens...but then I'm funny that way.
 
Re: oldoakman,

Hey Guy!!!

Thank you for giving your opinion.

I am putting effort in as well.

I just shot 2 videos in High Def to show the tree fully.

Here is the first that shows teh surrounding area, root zone, crown etc.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCHlrEODlcQ



Here is the second that just focuses on the diameter/trunk/depth of decay. I shot it to just focus on and show the proportion of the affected area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svD9cCyz7zM


Can you give your opinion on what you would do for this tree?

Thanks

Danielson=Learning :-)
 
Re: oldoakman,

That tree is in tough shape! Have you done a climbing inspection of this tree?

The large pruning wound shown in the beginning of the first video, @ 0:35.......how large is that and how well compartmentalized?

My PHC isn't anywhere near where it should be so I wont give you advice on the ooze, but it seems as though you have been given some great advice already.

IF the customer is intent on keeping the tree, with the known issues, I would do the following:

Remove grass, soil, rocks, from around trunk flare as far out from the trunk as the customer is comfortable with losing lawn space, using an air tool. Take a soil sample. Take your samples from areas all the way out PAST the drip line to get a good feel of what nutrients this soil is missing. While you're waiting for the soil results, top dress the entire drip line (grass or no grass) with 3"+ of good compost. Install 3" of mulch media, as far out from the trunk as the client is comfortable with losing lawn space, of the clients choice.

Install a 3/8"-1/2" Steel cable between those two co-doms.
 
Re: oldoakman,

Wow, thats a toughy, definitely a big part of the landscape that would be tough to lose.

If you can get access to a resistograph or similar tool, I'd definitely recommend graphing the trunk and lower sections of the codom stems to see what the extent of the decay is, and how far it might possibly extend. Excavation of the roots is also a great idea. The tree was certainly there well before that retaining wall was put in, so I'd be curious to see what condition the roots are in on that side of the tree, and how it relates to the decay on that side of the trunk, hopefully the roots are all still sound on that side. Definitely good luck with that one!
 
Re: oldoakman,

Boston,

Good eye!

Yes, there is a REALLY big cut that was done about a year ago and VERY poorly at that.

They left way too much material, and it is not healing correctly.

The diameter of that piece is around 14-17 inches.

I had thought of cables, but personally I would never install them due to the liability.

I would just be scared of failure of the tree, and the law suit that would follow. It is hard to see, but the tree, even above the co-dom is REALLY big, and I have my doubts that cables (even multiple) would hold. that piece is just so super heavy that any hardware that could support it would seem to do too much damage to the tree to install.

anyway, thanks for the PHC tips. I am not a phc guy at all so any and all thoughts are welcome.
 
Re: oldoakman,

Good afternoon danielson,

I got a quick look at the video. One question, Is that a fungus conk just around the left(worst) side hiding in the mondo grass. The vid moved so quickly that I couldn't quite catch it. If it is, it would give me something more to think about. Also, it looks like the rot side faces the retaining wall, correct?? Even though the wall is old, there still could be root damage from it's construction that is a contributing factor. The crown looks good and it shows that someone spent $$ on pruning. BTW it is a Southern Red Oak which is a bit better at compartmentalizing. That is a plus. It may be a bit before I can respond back to any other questions as I am heading th Savannah for the SMA Conference. Will try to get on the hotel computers, otherwise I will be back late Wednesday.
 
Re: oldoakman,

I agree with The Bull about taking a soil test, airspading/knifing, add compost that's low in nitrogen and add hardwood mulch. This'll help improve vigor. Since the wall was put in so long ago I'm sure the tree has adapted to it by now, I don't think it's an issue.

The white stuff in the wound is a fungus, that's not what's causing the oozing (that's probably another fungus or bacterium), but it's decaying the wood. It looks like a brown rot fungus, but without it full formed I cannot tell you which one. You wont be able to treat it and even if you scrape it off, it'll still be in the tree. I think this is what will eventually kill the tree or make it unsound. I don't know if anyone has seen trees heal over fungal infections before? I haven't.

Resistographs are great tools, but a good poor-man's method to testing soundness is to use a drill. Take an ear plug and stick it on the end of a 1/8" drill bit and drill into the tree. As you drill you'll feel the resistance and that'll tell you whether the wood's sound or decayed. The ear plug tells you how many inches you've gone into the tree.

I know there's a mathematical equation for determining whether a tree has enough sounds wood to be considered safe. Maybe someone here knows it.

Included bark is a concern, but it doesn't seem to be splitting and there aren't any signs of wetwood/slime flux. If you just want to be precautious you could install a Cobra cabling system, thereby not contributing to more wounding. If you're not familiar with Cobra system here's a link:

http://www.rainbowtreecare.com/pdf/SupportCables.pdf

I hope that helps.
 
Re: oldoakman,

That formula is based on 2 studies--one on conifers in CA and the other in Germany with skewed data...sketchy science to say the least.

good eye by oldoak re that orange thingy on the other side--job 1 is a complete 360 degree RCX so get that liriope out of there--a flat shovel will pop it right off. then check the base very well. job 2 is to check the right hand side of the wound--still waiting for that info. job 3 is to measure the canker more accurately than 'ABOUT 4 1/2 feet."

correction--job 1 is to make sure you are being paid for the risk assessment--you are at a greater legal risk giving opinions on that than you are installing cables. dunamic system would not fit this tree because movement (dynamism) would not help it.

at best tree has severe basal/trunk defect and is at least a moderate risk to fail in a severe storm. good advice re checking the roots toward the house. the codom seems a minor issue relatively but Bull is right; a cable would hold it. if you learned about support systems--spend $8. on the BMP-- you would understand that liability is nothing to fear.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom