Call to regulation pros/cons...

So the "Board of Tree Experts" is going to lord over us mere mortals and decide who has the "moral character" to take their test. U must be fucking kidding? Those that the "Board of Tree Experts" deem worthy will then need to pony up the $50 and pass their test. Then and only then will those that the "Board of Tree Experts" deemed worthy be allowed to try and eek out a modest living while busting their ass's and risking their lives. What a crock of elitist and classist bullpucky!!!!

So we have this "Licensed Tree Expert" from Jersey who has multiple degrees in forestry, arboriculture, ornamental horticulture, botany, nursery production, plant biology, plant physiology, ecology, horticulture, environmental planning, landscape architecture, botany, soils, plant science, plant biology, plant pathology, plant physiology, entomology, forestry, natural resources, ecology, horticulture, plant propagation, and landscape construction. If that wasn't enough he has also been working for a little lawn and tree care company in Tom's River for 7 years. Dude must be an "expert", don't ya think?

What happens when this fella gets a job working for an outfit along the coast of southern of Oregon and he suddenly finds himself staring down the barrel of something he has never seen before. A 70 inch DBH, 187 ft back leaning Fir removal over a million dollar home. Is he still a fucking "tree expert"?
 
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rico said:
So the "Board of Tree Experts" is going to lord over us mere mortals and decide who has the "moral character" to take their test. U must be fucking kidding? Those that the "Board of Tree Experts" deem worthy will then need to pony up the $50 and pass their test. Then and only then will those that the "Board of Tree Experts" deemed worthy be allowed to try and eek out a modest living while busting their ass's and risking their lives. What a crock of elitist and classist bullpucky!!!!

So we have this "Licensed Tree Expert" from Jersey who has multiple degrees in forestry, arboriculture, ornamental horticulture, botany, nursery production, plant biology, plant physiology, ecology, horticulture, environmental planning, landscape architecture, botany, soils, plant science, plant biology, plant pathology, plant physiology, entomology, forestry, natural resources, ecology, horticulture, plant propagation, and landscape construction. If that wasn't enough he has also been working for a little lawn and tree care company in Tom's River for 7 years. Dude must be an "expert", don't ya think?

What happens when this fella gets a job working for an outfit along the coast of southern Oregon and he suddenly finds himself staring down the barrel of something he has never seen before. A 70 inch DBH, 187 ft back leaning Fir removal over a million dollar home. Is he still a fucking "tree expert"?
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Thank you @rico for standing up here and speaking some common sense. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST LICENSING, but like your big tree example, the rope breaking in Casper was a math/materials/engineering problem, coupled with possibly an incorrect cutting technique. Funny that an engineering or related degree or experience doesn't show up on either ISA's or anyone else list. Go out into the oilfields there in Casper Wyoming and ask any of there oilfield workers whether they would have an engineer or a botanist analyzing their crane cables and guy wires.
 
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rico said:
So the "Board of Tree Experts" is going to lord over us mere mortals and decide who has the "moral character" to take their test. U must be fucking kidding? Those that the "Board of Tree Experts" deem worthy will then need to pony up the $50 and pass their test. Then and only then will those that the "Board of Tree Experts" deemed worthy be allowed to try and eek out a modest living while busting their ass's and risking their lives. What a crock of elitist and classist bullpucky!!!!

So we have this "Licensed Tree Expert" from Jersey who has multiple degrees in forestry, arboriculture, ornamental horticulture, botany, nursery production, plant biology, plant physiology, ecology, horticulture, environmental planning, landscape architecture, botany, soils, plant science, plant biology, plant pathology, plant physiology, entomology, forestry, natural resources, ecology, horticulture, plant propagation, and landscape construction. If that wasn't enough he has also been working for a little lawn and tree care company in Tom's River for 7 years. Now thats what I would call an "expert".

What happens when this fella gets a job working for an outfit along the coast of southern Oregon and he suddenly finds himself staring down the barrel of something he has never seen before. A 70 inch DBH, 187 ft back leaning Fir removal over a million dollar home. Is he still a fucking "tree expert"?
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You are 100% correct on the scenario you are describing.

That’s the big risk with having restrictions on any trade by a certifying body.

Minimum standards of pruning is about the best the regulation system can hope for, but so easy to have the system abused/exploited... I am glad to hear a system seems to be working in ‘Jersey’ but that doesn’t mean it will work anywhere else, or for the next generation of oversight. .. but I will certainly investigate what they are doing as it’s an interesting test case...
 
I can only speak from my own experience and I had the same sedimates myself a couple of years ago.But i am nobody with a super small tree service and little resources and actually there is a guy at all the functions i’v been to affiliated with these people and he does have west coast logging experience he took time to share some great cutting tips with me at our climbing comp,then he volenteed his time all day suiting up guys at the ascent event,he also was working his ass off at all the training events these people offer as well as our state tree conference! I for one learned a lot from that guy.
 
On one hand, I see this as being another headache for the honest operator that is trying to do good work. Folks already operating illegally won't care about this. It would be another tool for the enforcement folks to get them over.

On the other hand, in our area the level of quality tree work is very low. At least 50% are still spiking prunes. Topping is a regular thing. I get calls for it almost weekly. It's so often, I've though about putting together a narrated video on why topping is a bad practice so I can just email it to potential customers. Probably at least one third of our local tree guys are piling stuff on the curb for the county or city to pick up. This is not legal in our area. We had a local tree guy recently put a tree onto the neighbors house and basically walk. Who knows if he really even has insurance. It's required in the city to obtain a license but some of the tree services have figured out they can just go put the down payment on a policy then not keep making the premium payment. They'll get their coi to take to the city and they are good for another year. This of course causes issues when they have a coi but don't actually have insurance. I'd say overall I'm for it as long as it's treated just like being a licensed electrician or plumber is in our state.
 
Fivepoints said:
On one hand, I see this as being another headache for the honest operator that is trying to do good work. Folks already operating illegally won't care about this. It would be another tool for the enforcement folks to get them over.

On the other hand, in our area the level of quality tree work is very low. At least 50% are still spiking prunes. Topping is a regular thing. I get calls for it almost weekly. It's so often, I've though about putting together a narrated video on why topping is a bad practice so I can just email it to potential customers. Probably at least one third of our local tree guys are piling stuff on the curb for the county or city to pick up. This is not legal in our area. We had a local tree guy recently put a tree onto the neighbors house and basically walk. Who knows if he really even has insurance. It's required in the city to obtain a license but some of the tree services have figured out they can just go put the down payment on a policy then not keep making the premium payment. They'll get their coi to take to the city and they are good for another year. This of course causes issues when they have a coi but don't actually have insurance. I'd say overall I'm for it as long as it's treated just like being a licensed electrician or plumber is in our state.
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I guess if the whole community actually operated like a community this discussion wouldn’t be taking place....
 
Fivepoints said:
At least 50% are still spiking prunes.
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I do not mean for the following to be construed as a picture of everyone in the industry ...

I just watched a very popular tree service in my area spike a prune a few months back two houses up from me. I almost couldn't believe it, so I got out the binoculars to make sure I was seeing it right. Yes, it was true, and I also happened to notice the climber was not wearing a helmet, nor did he have any chainsaw protection. This company has a certified arborist on staff, licensed, insured, an A+rating with the BBB, a almost perfect Google rating with lots of reviews.

Interestingly, one of the climbers they sub to has history of lions tailing trees, and it appears to be his trademark. He must be proud of it because he posts pictures of his work all over the web. That may have been him that day, I don't know. I also happen to have run a bid right behind them recently, and they were going to strip a mature tree right up to the muffin top, removing about 30% of the foliage that was left on the already stripped tree, just because the customer hated raking leaves. I wouldn't let the customer do it and talked them into a more modest prune, and I got the job.

But here's the real kicker. Apparently this company has taken on the role of tree police in our area. Their guy walked onto my worksite one day and started asking some questions. I knew what he was up to, so I went toe-to-toe with him. After a while, the conversation shifted, and I listened to him complain about the non-legit operators, the worker's comp costs they were paying (actually pretty cheap here), then he started complaining about how well they pay their guys, but the owner was only making about $70,000-$90,000 a year and was thinking about getting out of the business. He was always sure to keep reminding me that they were big and everyone else (like me) was small. Before it was over with, he wanted to know if I was interested in coming to work as a foreman, or doing some sub'ing on the weekend. Apparently, moral on the crew was low and they were making mistakes. And, he also couldn't say enough good things about that climber - the one that lions tails all the trees. My customer came out and listened to some of the conversation. When the guy left, my customer wasn't real sympathetic to him - especially the part about how much money the owner makes - and told me I needed to go buy all the machines and put him and a couple of other services he's dealt with out of business. Knowing the cost of the machines, I actually WAS a little sympathetic, and I have no problem with with someone making money; but, I get where my customer was coming from. My customer was very happy with my work and appreciated my positive can-do attitude, the fact that I worked with him on some special requests, and the time and care I put into making sure that tree came down safely.

I just might call that company back and hook up with them some. I feel I could bring some things to the table that might help them become a real player one day and we could both get something out of it. But I have some reservations about their work, and their work environment. And I don't get the feeling they are going to be real patient when I start getting technical with big wood, because when we got on the topic of doing dynamic load calculations, he assured me that they use "high quality ropes that are really strong". Who knows if I'll call them, but maybe, we'll see. I kept the little spiking incident to myself.

Anyway, regulate all day long if you want, because that company would be a shoe-in for a license - heck, they're already certified. But I do agree with some of you on one thing, there do need to be some changes in this industry.
 
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Again...that highlights a difference between a voluntary certification and required license.

You can try reporting to ISA...in theory, they will revoke certification but I know of a bad hack job that was reported to ISA by a public official as it was a city job that was required to be done by a CA but there was no direct evidence that the one CA on staff physically did the work.

If practices don't meet ANSI standards, wouldn't their license be revoked regardless of other "qualifications"? If not, the whole discussion is worthless (and I am afraid that would too often be the case...).
 
Ok here are a few reasons why I was pretty impressed by the design of this licensing program in Jersey.
1)Every Tree Service must be registered.You have to have your insurance agent issue a certificate of insurance to Board of Tree Experts.Cert must be forWC and Liability with class codes for TREEWORK!!!! (In the past many people did treework with insurance for landscaping whch is a fraction of the cost)
In the event someone does not pay premium and insurance got canceled,the insurance company would immediately send out a letter to Board of Tree Experts and all other additionally insured notifying them that insurance was cancelled.If you don’t pay insurance premium your registration is suspended.
2) On the state website is a list of tree services that are in compliance AND a list of tree services that are not in compliance,they are listed by county.
3)Ansi A300 and Z133 are Law .The way the guy from the state explained it was that these standards have been adopted by the state as Law. In his own words “topping a tree in New Jersey is now illegal “
4) The people from the Board of Tree Experts are very accessible ,I have called or emailed about four times with questions or issues and the response was immediate.
5)At several different functions people from the Board have been present,gave a presentation/update on how things were going,and then addressed questions and concerns.
6)Enforcement ,we have been told to take a picture and send it in and they will look into it.
Last presentation i was at in March they had just added people to help with enforcement!
If you see someone spiking up a tree to prune it,take a picture of guy on spikes and company truck and send it in,pretty simple.

I understand that regulation usually starts out reasonable and then turns into a run away train.So far these people have been pretty reasonable,I don’t know what more you could ask for,but if you ask,they are pretty accommodating!
I go out and bid a job.If i do good work I get a referral and another job.If you can do it better,faster,cheaper than me and you get the job ,im good with that,it’s free enterprise and the American way,as long as you snd I are playing by the same rules(insurance,taxes,work standards)
 
Wrangler said:
Ok here are a few reasons why I was pretty impressed by the design of this licensing program in Jersey.
1)Every Tree Service must be registered.You have to have your insurance agent issue a certificate of insurance to Board of Tree Experts.Cert must be forWC and Liability with class codes for TREEWORK!!!! (In the past many people did treework with insurance for landscaping whch is a fraction of the cost)
In the event someone does not pay premium and insurance got canceled,the insurance company would immediately send out a letter to Board of Tree Experts and all other additionally insured notifying them that insurance was cancelled.If you don’t pay insurance premium your registration is suspended.
2) On the state website is a list of tree services that are in compliance AND a list of tree services that are not in compliance,they are listed by county.
3)Ansi A300 and Z133 are Law .The way the guy from the state explained it was that these standards have been adopted by the state as Law. In his own words “topping a tree in New Jersey is now illegal “
4) The people from the Board of Tree Experts are very accessible ,I have called or emailed about four times with questions or issues and the response was immediate.
5)At several different functions people from the Board have been present,gave a presentation/update on how things were going,and then addressed questions and concerns.
6)Enforcement ,we have been told to take a picture and send it in and they will look into it.
Last presentation i was at in March they had just added people to help with enforcement!
If you see someone spiking up a tree to prune it,take a picture of guy on spikes and company truck and send it in,pretty simple.

I understand that regulation usually starts out reasonable and then turns into a run away train.So far these people have been pretty reasonable,I don’t know what more you could ask for,but if you ask,they are pretty accommodating!
I go out and bid a job.If i do good work I get a referral and another job.If you can do it better,faster,cheaper than me and you get the job ,im good with that,it’s free enterprise and the American way,as long as you snd I are playing by the same rules(insurance,taxes,work standards)
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1. So the Tree Nazi's of New Jersey have unilaterally decided that topping any tree is now "illegal'? Unfuckingbelievable!!! So much for the land of the free...

2. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the idea of driving by a competitors job site, taking a picture of them doing something I believe is wrong, sending the picture to the Jersey Tree Nazi's, and having the Tree Storm-Troopers kick in their door and haul them away. Super awesome policy!!! So much for the Brotherhood?
 
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Wrangler said:
Ok here are a few reasons why I was pretty impressed by the design of this licensing program in Jersey.
1)Every Tree Service must be registered.You have to have your insurance agent issue a certificate of insurance to Board of Tree Experts.Cert must be forWC and Liability with class codes
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rico said:
1. So the Tree Nazi's of New Jersey have unilaterally decided that topping any tree is now "illegal'? Unfuckingbelievable!!! So much for the land of the free...

2. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the idea of driving by a competitors job site, taking a picture of them doing something I believe is wrong, sending the pictures to the Jersey Tree Nazi's, and having the Tree Storm-Troopers kick in their door and haul them away. Super awesome policy!!!
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Interesting question - Wrangler has there been any appeals to superior court after a negative judgement from the board? Or is it still in its infancy?
 
No and actually the attitude I’ve seen is nothing like what your describing.For example,the guy spiking up a tree to prune it,let’s find out whats up with him,is he a knucklhead who should know better or is it some tallented ambitious kid who loves this kind of work but needs some guidance!= better for everyone IMHO
 
I pop in and out of this thread so I might be repeating something.

Regulation without enforcement is no different than authority without power.

During my career I've experienced both situations. First, from a business situation where I followed the rules to comply with standards and regulations, others didn't but there was no 'badge' to enforce the rules. IN the second, I worked in situations on both sides. The authority was mine but I didn't have support from the power holder above me in the chain of command. That was a setup for failure that was certainly evident to the workers that I supervised. In another situation I had full support from the 'badge'. This made for workplace that was much easier to manage. Everyone knew the power structure.

Seeing our profession mature into a profession is encouraging. The consequences of doing bad treework, on trees and treeworkers, is as bad as bad dental or electrical work.
 
Oh and another thing that should not be confused,the “law” about topping thing
1) I bought that up because it was toppic of a interesting conversation i had with a board member and i was pretty surprised about the amount of reasonable knowledge he addressed it with
2) Board of Tree Experts did not create,update or alter Ansi A300 or Z133 our peers and colleagues did,they just adopted them
 
Heres Ansi's nonsensical stance on topping- Compliance: Topping is considered an unacceptable pruning practice, yet making heading-cuts is justifiable to meet a valid objective:
 start a pollard system

repair damaged trees

reduce risk

 shorten an over-extended limb, when there are no suitable laterals to cut to

 achieve adequate utility clearance


Are those the only circumstances that would be considered valid reason for topping, and who gets to decide whether the objective of the topping/heading cut is valid or not? The HO, the owner of the tree, the one who is paying for the services, an Ansi official, or a so-called Tree Experts? Maybe the Mayor has the finale say?

I am in no way personally attacking you Wrangler. Just strongly objecting to some of the ridiculous oversight that is headed our way-

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/uk-two-ropes-at-all-times-usa-next.41331/
 
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"ISA Certified Arborists would be required to be on scene anytime cutting or trimming operations are taking place above 12 feet"

"Cutting or trimming" - actual proposal says "aerial" operations, BUT refers to the LIMB, not the OPERATOR height - read pole sawing limb 13 ft above ground would require CA on site.

The good news for the smaller operators is that I know of several larger tree companies here that would have to either:
1) hire or get certified several more people to be on site with all of their crews; AND pay newly certified workers higher wages; AND support the certified worker with continuing education opportunities; AND risk the certified worker moving on now that they're certified;
OR
2) reduce the number of cutting/trimming crews to the number of certified arborists on staff, which is usually one or two max

I know one local company that would cry if this requirement were implemented. To my knowledge, they only have 1 CA on staff, but they must have 4 or more crews out there cutting above 12 ft every day. Chalk one up for the small guys. But, seriously, that requirement from the Casper board just goes to show how out of touch people can be when they get on these boards and try to regulate.

There is a bright side. The proposal does specifically say that in order to get the license, all you have to do is pass the test, then get ISA certified within 3 years. Now if Casper just makes their test very thorough and to include a brutal section on tree care operations materials and physics; and requires really high passing score - after all lives are stake right? - then I'd say it stands a chance of reducing future accidents.
 
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I am not convinced the cost will stay small long term. To have a CA for every operation? As said, there are a large number companies that dont have CA's on every crew. Could create an increase in income for CA people, and if widespread adoption could make it hard to recruit in short term - financial businesses would have an edge in that game I would think - hence the Mayors fears... he probably sees bigger costs to his own administration too...

Also a lot goes into an accident, and it doesn't have to be anyone on the work sites fault for it to happen - as the Mayor says (and he would probably be aware of the forensic detail) that the occurrence may not happen again..
 
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