Broken TIP

Neill said:
I had a questionable TIP that I set from the ground yesterday. I hung on it, did some bounces. It was very bouncy- no bottom. I called for another climber to hang on it with me and we sheared the limb . I was close to climbing and working off that!
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Details matter, was your line settled into a union or close to the spar? Or was it levering small diameter wood in a less than optimal position? What species tree?

May times I've accessed a tree on an initial anchor that I was not thrilled with, before working I go up (carefully) and relocate the anchor position for safety and strong position for working the tree.
-AJ
 
Conversely, I have tested a TIP that looked weird with three guys hanging on the line. My boss got the throw, and I wasn't thrilled with it, but when three guys weighted the line and it felt solid, I said alright. It was a little over 80' of open air all the way to the top side of this lanky noodle of a black oak, and when I got up there to climb the last dozen feet to the cut, I found myself suspended by friction alone. There was a branch about 4' down that would have caught me if it slipped, but if that happened when I was 3' off the ground, I doubt my ankle would be willing to deal with that without complaint. That was some years ago, and I have gotten some binoculars since, but my point is that you can never be too sure when it comes to your TIP. I won't leave the ground with even a shadow of doubt. I'd rather climb up from a sure bet.
 
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moss said:
May times I've accessed a tree on an initial anchor that I was not thrilled with, before working I go up (carefully) and relocate the anchor position for safety and strong position for working the tree.
-AJ
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If there's anything less than 4" or 5" of wood that looks bombproof (binoculars) I climb with long double ended lanyard. Come to think of it, very rarely will I do anything where I don't at least have a trunk with a lanyard around it even going up SRT. I just don't trust the stuff around here - usually get called when the tree has kicked the bucket some time ago or has funky root flareotomy or always there seems to be something. As for climbing what I call "hero trees" (you know the ones - where you can go up in mid air on big big limbs or that have 7" branches going straight out like mini sidewalks) - have yet to feel the warm fuzzy of these around here. Take your time, get a low tie-in point that'll lift a truck and then progress up from there with the totally redundant long long double ended lanyard/ second climbing system (about 25 ft or so). Slow and steady.
 
I find the takeaway to be bouncy = not solid i.e. your line is out levering a branch, you folded some small stuff under your line at the strong union, line is deflected, down leg is deflected etc. Levering a branch (not at trunk union) is the big offence imo. Unless the tree is so huge branches are like mini spars. Still, better = @trunk union - with a catch crotch in case of freak failure.
 
Glad you’re ok, and I suspect this is the best way to learn the best practices. Close calls tend to focus the mind.
 
I think that so much of this is species specific. We do a ton of Mulberry pruning and removals and you can safely climb on a pretty small wood if the angles are right and you're seated in the union. When I feel bounce, it doesn't necessarily tell me not good, it tells me to look carefully to see where the flex is coming from. There's good flex and bad flex. Glad you're safe @Neill!
 
Njdelaney said:
I think that so much of this is species specific. We do a ton of Mulberry pruning and removals and you can safely climb on a pretty small wood if the angles are right and you're seated in the union. When I feel bounce, it doesn't necessarily tell me not good, it tells me to look carefully to see where the flex is coming from. There's good flex and bad flex. Glad you're safe @Neill!
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I do love me some mulberry pruning. Good times for all in there.
 
Thanks for the discussion and responses.

As far as details, the tree was a willow oak. The line was set on an upward reaching limb, but approximately halfway out from where it started at the trunk. This was a base tie, but the fall of the line was deflected, keeping the limb in compression. This might be painting a picture in your head that says well, of course it sheared, but as one of the most frequently climbed species in my area, it’s not uncommon for me to set similar tips.
Yes, bounce can be a part of the daily grind, and I frequently call for a two person static test. This was just a first one that I’ve ever broken.
Establishing what is safe to work off of has got to be one of the most challenging aspects of tree work - particularly starting out. I never found any written reference for species, size, height, etc. fortunately, there are people willing to share their experiences. I credit the buzz for some of my development in this area, I particularly recall a video by @Richard Mumford-yoyoman, and numerous posts referencing the different methods of testing your tie in point.
So without sounding too arrogant, maybe this post can help out some new climbers too.
 
Mowerr said:
Wtf r we talking about? Dont climb on what doesn't hold you. Nothing to talk about
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Right, that’s it in a nutshell.
Except in this case, this particular limb did hold me on the ground. but would it havestill held when I went on that 20’ limb walk adding a bunch a vector force ?
I’m not looking for any magical insight or suggesting I have any real knowledge on the subject either. This was just a Place to share a close call.
 
Technically, a rope at trunk crotch then going out to a union on the branch and then down to the climber only about half fixes the get-compression issue (presume this was your geometry). If the trunk crotch is say 10 or 15' above the branch with the branch crotch (crotch about 10 or 15' out) then the branch is more of a pure pole support (in compression) because the rope is leaving above and below with similar angles from the branch crotch. Like a tent on top of a tent pole.

But both better than tip only at branch crotch - branch a pure lever arm.

Where's a graphic artist when you need one ?:)
 
Neill said:
I had a questionable TIP that I set from the ground yesterday. I hung on it, did some bounces. It was very bouncy- no bottom. I called for another climber to hang on it with me and we sheared the limb . I was close to climbing and working off that!
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Demonstrating a doubled and sustained load test in a challenging wooded area and a solo climb. I believe very strongly it must be sustained for an adequate period of time. NO BOUNCE unless your just setting you knots.

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I would think that if they didn't have a marked photo of the branch or other such documentation, they wouldn't have much of a case in court. If they did specifically say exactly what cuts you were to make and that they would not allow any others, and had that in writing, good chance they will eat you alive.
 
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