Belaying a tree.

beastmaster · Apr 7, 2017

Ok this might sound crazy, and I have no reason to do this, but if you had to climb a really sketchy top in a dead conifer. Has anyone ever set slings every 8ft or so running your climbing line throu biners, either self belaying or ground crew feeding line so if there was a failure under the sling or slings one could hold preventing a fall to the ground.
Those dead firs really make me nervous. I would never climb past a point I didn't feel secure, but I don't mind thinking of ways to give a little more piece of mind and safety.
But is it feasible?

evo · Apr 7, 2017

I've thought about this, and it wont work. If belayed and the point your climbing on breaks you fall to your next anchor, if the point below you breaks it's tied to your belay line, which would be a f-en mess. The only merit I see if the point right at the climber or above is the failure point. I would think that the climber would be above the failure point, and if there are anchors set every 8 ft there is a good chance that the climber will be tied to the broken top.

John_KAYS · Apr 7, 2017

Straps every 8 feet might hold the tree together!

Brocky · Apr 7, 2017

That method is used by the US Forestry Service for climbing when the stem gets to be 4-6 inches in diameter. They recommend using a dynamic rope and space the slings every 3 feet to avoid a factor two fall. I always tie the dynamic rope fairly low before using the slings to put more rope in the system to stretch. It should be a large rope because it might have to hold the climber and a piece of the tree. It's a bit of a pain because you have to pull your hitch up as you go, which has to be upside down in order to be right in a fall.

They also have a variation where a coworker belays the rope and the climber sets the slings without using a hitch.

chiselbit · Apr 7, 2017

I've done it just to make myself feel better. And like Evo said, it would probably be a mess but my thoughts were: a mess would offer more of a chance than a 100'+ free fall.

treewill · Apr 8, 2017

Brocky said:
That method is used by the US Forestry Service for climbing when the stem gets to be 4-6 inches in diameter. They recommend using a dynamic rope and space the slings every 3 feet to avoid a factor two fall.

They also have a variation where a coworker belays the rope and the climber sets the slings without using a hitch.

A few years ago I read the entire USFS tree climbing manual for a project reviewing the safety of published information on tree climbing. The USFS manual had a lot of terrible and downright bizarre recommendations, and I would not consider it anything like an authority.

As for using a dynamic belay on sketchy tops, @evo is spot on. It may give a feeling of security to go further up knowing that you are still tied in lower, but if that top fails it is still going to be a nasty, messy situation.

A couple thoughts on going up sketchy tops:

-consider tying your climb line into an anchor that you feel comfortable with, even if it's lower than where you need to work
-make sure your hitch is tied and dressed in such a way that it will catch if you take an unexpected fall
-going up past your anchor is easier on SRT than DdRT because you don't have to pull 2X the rope up
-work your way up using your lanyard and slings if necessary to tie in while repositioning your lanyard
-slings can also be helpful to make foot loops and keep your load as low as possible on the stem
-Most importantly if it really feels like a bad idea, BACK OFF and re-think. Maybe go for a TIP in another tree or a floating anchor point between other trees.

ARLO · Apr 9, 2017

treewill said:
A few years ago I read the entire USFS tree climbing manual for a project reviewing the safety of published information on tree climbing. The USFS manual had a lot of terrible and downright bizarre recommendations, and I would not consider it anything like an authority.

As for using a dynamic belay on sketchy tops, @evo is spot on. It may give a feeling of security to go further up knowing that you are still tied in lower, but if that top fails it is still going to be a nasty, messy situation.

The old USFS manual has been updated, which got rid of some of the very outdated methods. They also added sections on newer methods, but even the new version is pretty conservative when it comes to many of the new methods that have been developed for SRT. They still require their climbers to use the "4-inch tie-in" whenever they climb above a 4" stem diameter, which means the climber has to set an anchor every 3 feet once they get above the 4" stem diameter. At their annual training workshop they show a video of a guy who is goofing off in a small diameter conifer with a "4-inch tie-in". He jerks on the top so hard that he eventually breaks it off and ends up hanging with the top in his lap. I guess it worked because he is still laughing while hanging in the tree.

My understanding is that the committee that did the latest revision to the manual is open to receiving constructive reviews and suggestions, so if you see something you think is really wrong or unsafe you can always contact them. The person to contact is Lisa Winn or Brock Mayo at the Dorena Tree Improvement Center.

Brocky · Apr 9, 2017

This belay method protects you from a breakage below the climber. If this were to happen without being belayed, you and the top are going to the ground. With being tied in hopefully not. Myself, I'd rather not hit the deck. Even if the rope were to break the stretching and breaking would slow your descend, possibly reducing injury.

treewill · Apr 9, 2017

@ARLO thanks for the heads up; it looks like they have a new 2015 edition. I'll give it a look.

evo · Apr 9, 2017

Yes 3' belay tie ins may work great for getting to the tippy top. However context it important here. I thought we were talking about sketchy tops on dead fir trees, and not climbing to the tip for measurements, sample collection, or the such. I see little need to climb over 4" diameter wood on a simi mature to mature conifer.

Brocky · Apr 9, 2017

The diameter would dependent on the condition of the dead tree, not the 4" standard.

ARLO · Apr 10, 2017

evo said:
Yes 3' belay tie ins may work great for getting to the tippy top. However context it important here. I thought we were talking about sketchy tops on dead fir trees, and not climbing to the tip for measurements, sample collection, or the such. I see little need to climb over 4" diameter wood on a simi mature to mature conifer.

You are correct. The main reason that USFS climbers are going into very small tops is to collect cones or to do nest inspections or specimen collections. It is against USFS rules to climb dead trees or trees with sketchy trunks, so their climbers generally are not doing removals or pruning where they are getting into dead wood. Or at least if they do they don't talk about it.