Been 7 years since I last used Treebuzz.....I need input!

[colb]

I'll hunt down that thread. I thing the bulk of TCIA's income is membership dues, including the equipment suppliers and manufacturers who are members. Let me look into my financial reports to back that up.
I feel like the Arbormax partnership with TCIA is a good one, I just signed up for another year with them at under 10% on my comp. But work comp rates vary by state, AND Arbormax has a minimum policy that pretty much excludes any company doing less than $4-500k a year.

Based on the knuckleboom grapple saw crane fiasco that spanned two issues of the publication, I'm betting that the income - whether through corporate membership, sponsorship, or advertising - is sourced heavily from the large iron companies. I'd be entirely surprised if that was not the case.

"Small" companies can definitely operate at 400k and above, or 400k and below. How small a company will you try to represent at TCIA?

I appreciate you coming on the Buzz about this. Not trying to make it easy on you because then you'd have nothing to do, lol...

 

[DSMc]

... AND Arbormax has a minimum policy that pretty much excludes any company doing less than $4-500k a year.

Maybe you can explain why you think that is a good thing and at the same time advocate more support for smaller companies. I can guaranty that there are many small, legitimate tree companies that don't gross anywhere near 400K a year. What is your definition of a small company?

 

[guymayor]

Hey Noel, maybe you can get fair market compensation for writers. TCI pays less than publications with much smaller audiences. They get more money for a 1/8 page ad than they pay for 4 pages of content.

 

[Daniel]

We've talked a good bit about pruning standards here over the years. Look for the threads. They still advocate raising the crown, cleaning the tree, fail to mention that older trees shouldn't be pruned as heavily or often as younger trees, advocate the 3 point cut (then put only in the appendix (getting its own page when it should have been put with the diagram: only to be done on small limbs under 3") and worst of all recommend against reduction pruning, and fai;l to note long reaching, over-extended limbs as a hazard. Additionally fail to recognize that shade needs to be kept on the tree's western and south western sides for trunk and root system etc..

 

[Daniel]

Here's my earlier post about pruning standards I would recommend

tree pruning primer


no live cuts on the main stem(s), or if the client insists only smaller cuts on the main stem(s), absolutely no live cuts over 4", even if you have to leave a stub, leave most epicormic shoots (sprouts), they are especially important to leave if they are near an existing wound, and if the client insists, then rather than remove all sprouts, just thin and shape, with the long term goal of having the sprouts develop into small limbs. It's also possible to leave a few stub on an initial heavy prune with the goal of letting those stub fill up with sprouts, rather than the trunk. Then 1-3 years later, the tree will have normalized its growth, the stubs that are loaded with sprouts can be removed with a clean target cut (or close to a target cut), without worrying about the tree filling up with new sprouts (this is especially helpful on ornamental fruit trees that require sever reduction in size). That is the best way to prevent an ornamental tree from filling up with sprouts after a hard prune.

and reduce mature hardwoods by making smaller cuts at the branch tips, especially on long, heavy over -extended laterals. If the limbs are over-extended heavily, or have structural defects they can be reduced as needed, up to 90% (leaving only a stub) on any individual limb, with the goal of minimizing overall loss of leaves, so that you can hit several lateral branches very hard, if needed, but then go light on the rest of the tree. In general leave the center of the tree and the uprights alone NO "CLEANING". Unless there are structural defects, let the tree grow up, just bring in the sides. If a tree has structural defects, it may be necessary to make large reduction cuts on the uprights, but in general try to avoid it, especially on certain species. When pruning to reduce stress on structural compromised trees, take the weight from the most leveraged place possible, which are the branch tips, especially the tops. Depending on the degree of the structural issue, and the risk of damage should the tree fail, you may need to go very heavy on the reduction cuts. Knowing how sensitive the species is is important, so you don't kill the tree. There are many species that can handle the European style 20' reductions, but many can't. So only take off as much as the tree can handle. No formula, just experience and instincts..

And NO ELEVATION except as absolutely required for human needs, The goal is to keep shade on the trunk and roots. So it is especially important to leave shade on the western and southwestern sides of the tree. if there are no other trees shading the trunk and roots, its very important to keep as much shade on the root and trunk as possible, with certain species being more sensitive than others.

And NO target cuts on anything big (roughly 3" or more), unless the target is perfectly clear. Always leave a stub long enough to be absolutely certain the branch protection zone is not violated. And if you know you'll be back to prune the tree again in the next few years, you can leave a sizable stub, 6 or 8 long, or even longer. If the stub sprouts, it can be pruned to train the new growth. if not, finish the cut once the limb is visibly dead and easily distinguished from the live collar on the trunk.

When making small cuts on the branch tips, 1" and under, target pruning really makes no difference. It's just quicker and easier to make the cuts some distance away from the branch union, and leave a small stub. this will have zero effect on the tree's health.


I always think it's better to bring back the big lateral limbs and leave the uprights growing unmolested. Each lateral is treated individually, with the amount of reduction to depend on multiple factors, including how far overextended it is, how big and heavy is the limb, how is it joined to the parent stem, how is the rest of the limb structurally, how sensitive the species is to pruning, what is the potential for property damage should the limb fail, and what is the clients tolerance for risk, when is the tree likely to get pruned again, and last but not least, how healthy and vital is the tree, meaning is taking a lot of weight and therefore leaves off going to significantly hurt the trees health.

 

[TreeCo]

Ya we all could use a little work on the "let us forgive others as we wish to be forgiven" motto..

Whatever I did to piss you off, happened so long ago that I have no recollection of it... But hey ... please forgive me for whatever it was.... I didn't mean it and I promise never to do it again.... Now back to giving TCIA the feedback they deserve, but will no doubt continue to ignore!

It's your inane bucket baby arbor 101 videos, not something you did long ago.

 

[Noel]

Maybe you can explain why you think that is a good thing and at the same time advocate more support for smaller companies. I can guaranty that there are many small, legitimate tree companies that don't gross anywhere near 400K a year. What is your definition of a small company?

Oh, I wasn't clear. The program is good for qualifying companies, the "but" in my answer was meant to imply that I wish more kick-ass small companies could qualify and enjoy the benefits of a strong safety culture. I don't have a definition for "small" company, but I still feel like I have one.

 

[Noel]

Based on the knuckleboom grapple saw crane fiasco that spanned two issues of the publication, I'm betting that the income - whether through corporate membership, sponsorship, or advertising - is sourced heavily from the large iron companies. I'd be entirely surprised if that was not the case.

"Small" companies can definitely operate at 400k and above, or 400k and below. How small a company will you try to represent at TCIA?

I appreciate you coming on the Buzz about this. Not trying to make it easy on you because then you'd have nothing to do, lol...

 

[Noel]

Colb, I want every size company to have the opportunity to gain knowledge, advice, help. If you are willing to cough up the money for membership, there should be a reward. One that makes your company safer and more profitable. I think I was not clear on the quoted post, I think it sucks that the small companies that don't qualify for Arbormax are often thrown into the state pool for comp, regardless of their safety culture and record.

 

[Noel]

I'll also say that if two issues of grapplesaw misquotes or misinformation cause you to negate all the other good contributions that the organization is making to our industry in safety, free training with ASTI, political representation, and workforce development, it's a little narrow minded. It's a big organization with a lot of gears, there are improvements needed in many areas. We can work on them. But please don't let a small mistake (in the grand scheme) keep you from giving your feedback and influence. My goals are not to turn TCIA upside down, just to move the needle.

 

[Noel]

Here's my earlier post about pruning standards I would recommend

tree pruning primer


no live cuts on the main stem(s), or if the client insists only smaller cuts on the main stem(s), absolutely no live cuts over 4", even if you have to leave a stub, leave most epicormic shoots (sprouts), they are especially important to leave if they are near an existing wound, and if the client insists, then rather than remove all sprouts, just thin and shape, with the long term goal of having the sprouts develop into small limbs. It's also possible to leave a few stub on an initial heavy prune with the goal of letting those stub fill up with sprouts, rather than the trunk. Then 1-3 years later, the tree will have normalized its growth, the stubs that are loaded with sprouts can be removed with a clean target cut (or close to a target cut), without worrying about the tree filling up with new sprouts (this is especially helpful on ornamental fruit trees that require sever reduction in size). That is the best way to prevent an ornamental tree from filling up with sprouts after a hard prune.

and reduce mature hardwoods by making smaller cuts at the branch tips, especially on long, heavy over -extended laterals. If the limbs are over-extended heavily, or have structural defects they can be reduced as needed, up to 90% (leaving only a stub) on any individual limb, with the goal of minimizing overall loss of leaves, so that you can hit several lateral branches very hard, if needed, but then go light on the rest of the tree. In general leave the center of the tree and the uprights alone NO "CLEANING". Unless there are structural defects, let the tree grow up, just bring in the sides. If a tree has structural defects, it may be necessary to make large reduction cuts on the uprights, but in general try to avoid it, especially on certain species. When pruning to reduce stress on structural compromised trees, take the weight from the most leveraged place possible, which are the branch tips, especially the tops. Depending on the degree of the structural issue, and the risk of damage should the tree fail, you may need to go very heavy on the reduction cuts. Knowing how sensitive the species is is important, so you don't kill the tree. There are many species that can handle the European style 20' reductions, but many can't. So only take off as much as the tree can handle. No formula, just experience and instincts..

And NO ELEVATION except as absolutely required for human needs, The goal is to keep shade on the trunk and roots. So it is especially important to leave shade on the western and southwestern sides of the tree. if there are no other trees shading the trunk and roots, its very important to keep as much shade on the root and trunk as possible, with certain species being more sensitive than others.

And NO target cuts on anything big (roughly 3" or more), unless the target is perfectly clear. Always leave a stub long enough to be absolutely certain the branch protection zone is not violated. And if you know you'll be back to prune the tree again in the next few years, you can leave a sizable stub, 6 or 8 long, or even longer. If the stub sprouts, it can be pruned to train the new growth. if not, finish the cut once the limb is visibly dead and easily distinguished from the live collar on the trunk.

When making small cuts on the branch tips, 1" and under, target pruning really makes no difference. It's just quicker and easier to make the cuts some distance away from the branch union, and leave a small stub. this will have zero effect on the tree's health.


I always think it's better to bring back the big lateral limbs and leave the uprights growing unmolested. Each lateral is treated individually, with the amount of reduction to depend on multiple factors, including how far overextended it is, how big and heavy is the limb, how is it joined to the parent stem, how is the rest of the limb structurally, how sensitive the species is to pruning, what is the potential for property damage should the limb fail, and what is the clients tolerance for risk, when is the tree likely to get pruned again, and last but not least, how healthy and vital is the tree, meaning is taking a lot of weight and therefore leaves off going to significantly hurt the trees health.

Daniel, I know that the committee that writes these standards is a volunteer committee, that is usually looking for qualified members. They start working on the upcoming standard even as the current one is going to print. It sounds like you might have done it, but I encourage you to contact TCIA and throw your name in the ring to join the committee if you feel strongly about it. I have discovered that you have to just keep filling out the applications so they realize you really care and are actually interested in participating .

 

[Noel]

Hey Noel, maybe you can get fair market compensation for writers. TCI pays less than publications with much smaller audiences. They get more money for a 1/8 page ad than they pay for 4 pages of content.

As a board member I am expected to contribute articles, too. My perception is that there are enough arborists that want to see their article published that the "market" is driven down. Classic supply and demand setting prices for their published material.

 

[guymayor]

Classic case of you get what you pay for...Some issues have some good stuff--Howard Gaffin is great!--; other issues not so much.

Lots of room for other voices--thanks for chiming in!

 

[Daniel]

As a board member I am expected to contribute articles, too. My perception is that there are enough arborists that want to see their article published that the "market" is driven down. Classic supply and demand setting prices for their published material.

Maybe that is the case these days.. But certainly they published a lot of trash that wasn't worth the time to read for many years! After my first article got published Michael Oxman called me up and said how he was so surprised to read an article that actually had some practical application.

 

[DSMc]

... I don't have a definition for "small" company, but I still feel like I have one.

Thanks for the response, Noel. There are many organizations that define small business. They all end with a top end cap on either employees or gross sales. Those definitions include all those within that cap, even the ones on the very bottom. Any company that builds barriers to all those below that top cap are not helping the smaller companies.

 

[Mark Chisholm]

You know how you get overwhelmed with all the online interactions: Insta, FB, etc. I took a little break.

Can I reintroduce myself? I'm Noel Boyer. Have a cool little company in Springfield, MO. Was a competitive climber for 20 years, now on the other side of the clipboard. Got my BCMA about 10 years ago. Also a CTSP.
I always have lots of questions about business, so forgive me in advance if I'm a pest.

I was recently selected to the Board of Directors for TCIA. I wanted to see if I could do anything to help businesses, especially small ones like mine, get easier access to answers and solutions to the problems that keep us from being profitable and safe.

I am going to TCIA headquarters next week for orientation and my first official board meeting. I have some ideas on ways TCIA can be more connected and helpful to its members. If you have a minute, could you give me more ammunition to carry into that meeting? How has TCIA helped you? How have they let you down? How can we have positive influence in an industry that has a lot of negative and dangerous habits?

Welcome back buddy! And thanks for taking on the challenge of the new TCIA position. You'll do great.

 

[colb]

It's your inane bucket baby arbor 101 videos, not something you did long ago.

I'm just going to take a second to thank @Daniel for his 101 videos, and his more advanced videos on cutting wood. I watched several of them while starting my career. I did not watch the bucket videos because I'm not a bucket guy, climbing instead. Daniel, through his videos, showed me how to bore cut storm damaged logs to release tension while keeping the saw from getting pinched. I use that technique every week and one of my new groundies was commenting on it a couple weeks ago. @TreeCo , you might be sick of watching them (which is fine), and I might not need them now, but that's because I watched them. Daniel's reach (all the way to my ground crew, for instance) is pretty substantial, and pretty great. He's made the lot of us safer, more skilled, and more accountable for thinking through our cuts.

Apologies for derailing...

 

[TheTreeMD]

Many of the guys have definitely touched on a couple of the ideas that are definitely there. One being that TCIA definitely caters to big iron and large companies. My company is very small 4 employees in the summer and 3 in winter, including me. It is my 4th year in business, 21 years in the industry, just shy a masters in forestry competitive climber... let's just say education and skill are not lacking. The company is finally making around 200k gross and still growing. At this stage, just joining the TCIA is ridiculously expensive. Sorry, don't have an extra 1k laying around to throw at it. Then to become TCIA accredited.... is that a joke? All the hoops and added costs to get that done easily? Nope. Which prevents my company from joining the arbormax insurance... yet we have had 0 accidents since i founded the company. In addition we are more safety conscious and professional than any other company near me, a fact I am very proud of. That includes powerline trimmers etc. Also live in central illinois. but... 41 cents on the dollar for WC is ridiculous.... I would love to get my ctsp and be involved with TCIA in addition to the ISA, but it is cost prohibitive and entry into that market is non-existent for small companies. If I have to choose an organization obviously the ISA does more for my company than the TCIA. So, TCIA needs to come up with a better graduated scale for entry into participation along the whole gamete of the things it offers.

 

[colb]

As a board member I am expected to contribute articles, too. My perception is that there are enough arborists that want to see their article published that the "market" is driven down. Classic supply and demand setting prices for their published material.

Think about what type of arborist is being recruited to write though - arguably ones who either do not respect themselves, or have found a way to monetize influence... Does the TCIA want to continue being "classic"? That is its niche right now, and I guess some entity will always fill that niche.

 

[jefftheswede]

Nice to have you pop in Noel!

I'll think about a reply

Me too!
Jeff