Areial Rescue

klimbinfool

klimbinfool

Location
magalia california
I've always held a areial rescue section in my workshops, because I feel its a vital importance to the tree worker.The ISA has taken this out of the tree worker certification program and put it in the hands of the (owner). Liability I believe is the ISA main issue.Doesn't certifying someone to climb have the same liabilty issues? HOW DO YOU PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT THIS TURN AROUND IN THE TREE WORKERS CERTIFICATIION?
 
I think that it has the potential to lower the bar in quality of certified tree workers. On the other hand, it could do the opposite; it depends on the integrity of the "employer" or whoever is judging the climb. Employers could tend to have a conflict of interest and want to pass a mediocre climber when he shouldn't. Once again, the opposite could be true: an employer could set the bar extra high to teach his climber that certification is more than a brownie button. If the employer/tester sticks to the ISA guidelines, (which don't really exist anymore as I understand it) a lot of subjectivity can be eliminated. What's your take on this, Greg?
Tied in, Jesse
 
I just cant resist...

In my not so humble opinion the entire ISA cert. program is primaraly designed as a revenue building operation.

To my knowledge there has never been a disbarred CA.
However the ISA continually adds additional cert. and levels. Each one requires ongoing CEUs (all of which cost).
In my experience (15 + yrs of business) the Cert. aspect has not been of real importance in landing jobs. What has landed me jobs is my CA. Contractors Lic. (C-27).
For me I really like being a C.A. I have met many great folks I deeply admire. I have learned more about trees than I ever thought possible.
I owe that to the ISA.
But in terms of the ISA C.A. certification being a badge of importance like a Master's degree or even a B. A. the ISA CA is nothing like that.
As long as the ISA keeps on the track they are going I think the CA and all the other programs will continue to degrade.
REMEMBER! You can go down any street in any city and see trees mangled, topped and hacked on by no less than supposidly qualified personnell such as: "Utility Arborists", Municipal employees, County workers and not to be forgotten ordinary folks.

Ask yourself: Is the ISA really helping in this?
Frans, Grand Mogal Poo Baa of trees
 
Of all the (owners)in tree work, do you think thier really taking the time to train thier employees on a consistant basis for areial rescue? Or are they so production oriented that they over look this one vital aspect, that could mean someones life. I know and most of you know , that once a year is not enough.I practice with my crew at least six times a year and they very drastcally in the styles that they have to perform these recues.This may be a touchy subject for some, but I would like as many opinions on this subject as I can get.
 
Snarf,
I do agree you can drive down any street, in any town, and see trees mutilated by whomever.
But I see the credential of being CA very valuable. It sets me apart from those hacks doing the mutilations. I wish the level of public awareness was much higher, but I have dealt with many(countless) people who are specifically looking for a CA. I have many clients that hired me because I was certified and the other companies they called were not.( It also helps a great deal that I am honest and actually know what Im talking about when consulting with these clients). In the local YP in which I advertise, I am one of three companies out of about twenty-five whom display the ISA Cert logo, who do you think gets the most high end calls from these ads? Sure the other companies get plenty of shoppers im sure, but those shoppers are mainly looking for the lowest bid. Those are calls I dont want anyway. High end clientele who want a true specialist see the Cert logo and it stands out to them, is that not a value in itself?
My local forester uses contracters from time to time, he will not even consider a company unless they are ISA certified. Not to mention the referals he gives, alot of people when looking for a company will call their city forester for a recommendation, it nice to know that im at the TOP of that list.

Im not trying to but heads with you on this subject but I strongly disagree with your viewpoints about being a CA. To me it is very valuable and I proudly display the logo every chance i get.
 
I know this has strayed from the topic of aerial rescue quite a bit but i could not resist responding to Snarf's post above.
maybe we could start a new thread?
 
I agree With tophopper on the getting work part of being a CA. I get alot of calls since I'm the only CA in the county. The local shade tree commision and extension will only give out names of ISA CA's.


I do agree with snarf that it is not perfect. There are some CA's that should be "uncertified" and I wish ISA would do something about it. It is not perfect but it is something, which is better than nothing.

I cannot control what others do with certification but I can do my best to be a good example of a CA.

Eric R. Engstrom

Massachusetts Certified Arborist
Massachusetts Certified Horticulturalist
International Society of Arboriculture Certified Arborist
New Jersey Certified Tree Expert
Pennsylvania Certified Horticulturalist

[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Eric E ]
 
My objection with AR is it's emphasis on speed. Where is the first aid? stabilization? This is Boy Scout stuff - Start the breathing , Stop the bleeding....

Get a compresion bandage on the wound, put a collar on his neck.......

The there is suspention trauma, we barely talk about it in these forums. how long has he been up there?


Then there is the training liability where people get injured screwing up the training AR. You need qualified instructors.
 
Hey Greg, I agree with Jesse that it all depends on how important is aerial rescue
training is to the employer. Is his focus on just geting his guys certified or teaching preventive measures and techniques in situations.
As for our company, I've learned 15 years ago that training is important. I was removing one of the trunk of a co-dominant 120'redwood tree that failed onto another tree and wedged itself. The area of this weak attachment was at 70'or so. I tied into the other spar and removed this trunk with no problems.My rope was maybe 130'or so I had to retie to reach ground. Before I could do that I swung to kick this dead branch out of my way and manage to run my taughtline to the end of the rope and you can imagine what happen after that.Yes, I'm still alive and blessed by the lord to share.
My crew not trained in cpr and first aid did all the wrong things. Unconscious and breathng they moved me,carried me to the car,the other worker on site was in shock did not know what to do. My brother drove me to the hospital.When I came to, my wife and 2 boys were next to my bed. What an awesome sight.
Training is important no matter from ISA or Employers. Our focus is ways to prevent accidents and how to address them through training. We have AR training once a month
in our company.Thanks Greg and Jesse for being part of these training workshops. It could be the training that is needed to save someone on the ground or in the tree.


Gary
 
i think if you approach this stuff like we are the only select few that could look out for someone of our own kind in an emergency, that it only makes sense to learn such skills.

Kinda like looking out for your own butt! Same goes for being courteos to anther tree company working on the same road. If ya get into trouble, who ya gonna call!

i think just the act of hanging injured would be very stressful.
 
I agree with a lot of this thread. AR is very important. Until there are some guidliness about WHAT to teach, AR will look like the TCC or EHAP version. Pretty lame...

Our profession has no AR protocols to use as guidlines. This has been bandied about for years but there's no progress.

Here are a coule of links to suspension trauma information. If this doesn't scare you then I don't know what will.
http://www.fallsafety.com/pages/suspensiontrauma.htm

http://www.cancaver.ca/int/mexico/zotz/harness-death.htm


Tom
 
I don't believe that it's the NAA or ISA's mission to provide standards. This might come from the ANSI Z-133 committee or a group of volunteers who have the time and care to work on this issue.

If its to be, its up to me, remember.

Tom
 
We don't have aerial rescue , it's just playing fetch with a dummy, with a five minute time limit .
blush.gif
 
Riggs, Try it with a live person, it makes a big difference.Set yourself in a position where you think you would most likely be, if you where to get injured. Of course dont make it so hard they cant do it.But you will get the feel for how they actually handle you.I use a dummy sometimes myself, but with a dummy, you get careless with how you handle it. You probably know what I mean.

Greg

Greg
 
Greg,

A couple of years ago there were at least two deaths in the US practicing AR. Good reason not to use a live "patient".

When I took my Wilderness First Responder class we did all of our training with other students in the class. I was a victim when the class had to use a Skedge to move down a trail. Pretty freaky being tied into a tube and not being able to see. I did trust everyone in the class. We never did any off the ground work though.

IF anyone were to use a live person for training there should be a belay system that gives redundancy in case of an accident.

Tom
 
Who is supposed to be doing the AR, the ground crew, or do you always have 2 climbers on a job? Having 2 climbers on a job sounds expensive. If you had to call your other climber to do a rescue and he is 20 minutes away on another job, I'd think the fire dept would be faster and a better choice.

On the CA subject... almost all of the CA's in my city spike trees. I think Davey is the only company with a CA that doesn't. The CA's just use a 20ft ladder so the holes are well above eye sight. They know better, but one CA I know claims that the other CA's do it and he has to keep up production...
Greg

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Greg ]
 
Greg ,to answer your question,Ar should be practiced by ground crew and climbers. The ground crew needs to know how to get you out of the tree.

Tom you umay be right on the live Ar, but not everyone has a dummy to use like we do. They are pretty pricy and I do trust my crew to do live on me. Also , where those Ars rock climbing? or tree climbing.
 
In my opinion practicing AR with a living Dummy is a bad idea. But practicing AR with a live experienced climber is second to none. You can not even compare this to a dummy rescue, we all have seen the handling of dummy’s at TCC’s .

I am making a presumption but I believe that an experienced climber as a victim could fully control his fate during a rescue. If dummy rescues a dummy I am not so sure. There has been many people killed using excepted climbing techniques and we continue to use them.

I know that live victims have been used in the European TCC and the German TCC without incident. Just something to think about. Tony
confused.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom