I have a bunch of amsteel around the shop that I use for dog sled lines. Looking online a lot of the friction savers are webbing, or leather. Is there a reason not splice up friction savers using amsteel? I’d most likely use 1/4” or maybe next size up. I believe 1/4” has a breaking strength of 7500lbs.
Amsteel friction saver
- Thread starter Ronhayden
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Jimmycrackcorn
Participating member
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- Boston
I'd probably give that a no vote. But that's based around me not fully knowing what it's shock absorbing capabilities are, as well as a few other factors.
1/4 in is rather small so I'm not sure you could turn it into an adjustable one without hassle.. you know, like using it with a prusik ring.. & if you were able to make something work as an adjustable, is the 1/4in so small that it's just going to roll down a smooth spar once loaded? 1/4 is just small.. period, i know my big gorilla mits would have a hell of a time manipulating it.
How do knots hold up in it? Is it slick?
However, on the flip side of all that, i know I've seen guys use amsteel for big ole 3/4 & 1in block anchors, so shock loading may not be of concern there...idk.. Like i mentioned before, i don't know allot about its properties. I do know it doesn't like heat though, so maybe that's why we don't see it used as much as other materials in this industry.
I know i say it all the time but that Yale Cordage dynamic/static break test video comes into consideration every single time i considered any cordage at all. It's a real eye opener.
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1/4 in is rather small so I'm not sure you could turn it into an adjustable one without hassle.. you know, like using it with a prusik ring.. & if you were able to make something work as an adjustable, is the 1/4in so small that it's just going to roll down a smooth spar once loaded? 1/4 is just small.. period, i know my big gorilla mits would have a hell of a time manipulating it.
How do knots hold up in it? Is it slick?
However, on the flip side of all that, i know I've seen guys use amsteel for big ole 3/4 & 1in block anchors, so shock loading may not be of concern there...idk.. Like i mentioned before, i don't know allot about its properties. I do know it doesn't like heat though, so maybe that's why we don't see it used as much as other materials in this industry.
I know i say it all the time but that Yale Cordage dynamic/static break test video comes into consideration every single time i considered any cordage at all. It's a real eye opener.
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1/4 is pretty small. Amsteel doesn’t hold knots well at all, very prone to slipping especially with load cycles. My experience with it had been all eye to eye splices, and loopies. I’m very new to climbing. I have a decent back ground of ropes from have my rope rescue tech, and being a part of our FD tech rescue team. My thought on it was to use it as ring to ring friction saver. It’s extremely easy to splice amsteel and Samson claims 90% strength when done per their guidelines. If I sat down and looked at pictures I could probably make one similar to the arb midline but If people aren’t using amsteel for that then I’d hate to be the test dummy lol
Jimmycrackcorn
Participating member
- Location
- Boston
Well shit man.. you seen to have some knowledge on the subject.. rescue rope training, fire rescue, etc.. what does your intuition/training tell you?
My only concern is the shock loading probability.. yes your right.. the 1/4 is over 7k & the 5/16 is over 12k, but the 3/8 Ultrex in the video i referenced had almost twice that rating with a static break rate at over 20k & snapped like nothing with a 220lbs load falling a measily 6ft.
So as you can see, those big numbers mean nothing if it can't take 1.1% of its 20,000 lb rating free falling 6ft..
However.... Dyneema may be different, it may have some stretch to it, i really don't know. I do know that treestuff used to sell a amsteel whoopie or loopie, so if i was to guess, id say it had to have at least a little stretch or they wouldn't have had it out there as a rigging anchor.
With that said, you want to use it as a r&r climbing anchor.. climbing involves a high risk of falling, falling a good distance is a possibility too if for some unacceptable reason you have slack in your line. Idk man, im still a no on it.
Maybe someone else can elaborate a bit on it as i can confidently say I've never seen anyone make one that small.. & it's probably for good reason as if it was ok you'd figure everyone would be doing it because of how compact it would be to carry around.
My only concern is the shock loading probability.. yes your right.. the 1/4 is over 7k & the 5/16 is over 12k, but the 3/8 Ultrex in the video i referenced had almost twice that rating with a static break rate at over 20k & snapped like nothing with a 220lbs load falling a measily 6ft.
So as you can see, those big numbers mean nothing if it can't take 1.1% of its 20,000 lb rating free falling 6ft..
However.... Dyneema may be different, it may have some stretch to it, i really don't know. I do know that treestuff used to sell a amsteel whoopie or loopie, so if i was to guess, id say it had to have at least a little stretch or they wouldn't have had it out there as a rigging anchor.
With that said, you want to use it as a r&r climbing anchor.. climbing involves a high risk of falling, falling a good distance is a possibility too if for some unacceptable reason you have slack in your line. Idk man, im still a no on it.
Maybe someone else can elaborate a bit on it as i can confidently say I've never seen anyone make one that small.. & it's probably for good reason as if it was ok you'd figure everyone would be doing it because of how compact it would be to carry around.
We don’t use any of the amsteel or like synethic fibers. When I asked one of our lead guys he said it was a cost issue. Static loads i would feel comfortable with that kind of safety factor built into with the breaking strength but I didn’t think of the dynamic load. I emailed samson and I’ll see if they send me a dynamic load chart for amsteel blue. I found one article explaining dynamic testing but it was over my head, only other thing I could find was a video on YouTube of shockload test on a whoop or sling. I’ll update if I hear anything back from Samson.
Jimmycrackcorn
Participating member
- Location
- Boston
Huh.. odd im suprised none of that is covered in any one of your rope rescue courses or certs.
Basically, The forces on the rope multiple exponentially when catching a load.
All the information you need should be right there in each product page or product info download pdf. Typically the only info i find on shock loading is within dynamic climbing rope specs.. But when it comes to the ropes we use, we usually go by elongation. Every manufacturer is going to present the data a little different but i find Yales way if presenting it to be the easiest to read by far.. If you go to a their site & dig into their ARB ropes (or any of them got that matter) & scroll way to the bottom you'll see a a link where you can open up "Data". From there you'll be shown a graph chart with different colors & breaking strengths. Also, all their strengths & how they were measured will be listed below (splice, capstain, etc)
If you look at a couple different ones, like something suited for climbing, something that would typically used in a friction saver yet still considered "static" like Arbormaster then compare it vs a real "static" like a 48 strand Kern you should see a the differences in it's elongation within working loads. This is where they show how far you can expect it to stretch before hitting your 10:1 or 5:1 working load.
Then if you look at something like the Ultrex Plus (a high tech 12strand) vs Yalex (Poly 12 strand), you'll seea better example of how dramatically different they are when high tech fibers are thrown into the mix. Also, that video i mentioned you should watch is embedded in the Ultrex page.
So the charts are telling you a few things, how much you can expect it to stretch while climbing & bouncing around on it within that safe WLL, how far its going to stretch/elongate beyond that WLL before reaching it's MBS & eventually breaking. It's also going to give you the Specific Gravity. It's all kinda hard to explain on paper.. i may also be lacking the technical knowledge to explain it better as well.. (especially the Specific Gravity part, which i think is the crux if this conversation) I kinda just reluctantly follow the herd on this topic & try not to be the "test dummy" as you would say..
Basically, The forces on the rope multiple exponentially when catching a load.
All the information you need should be right there in each product page or product info download pdf. Typically the only info i find on shock loading is within dynamic climbing rope specs.. But when it comes to the ropes we use, we usually go by elongation. Every manufacturer is going to present the data a little different but i find Yales way if presenting it to be the easiest to read by far.. If you go to a their site & dig into their ARB ropes (or any of them got that matter) & scroll way to the bottom you'll see a a link where you can open up "Data". From there you'll be shown a graph chart with different colors & breaking strengths. Also, all their strengths & how they were measured will be listed below (splice, capstain, etc)
If you look at a couple different ones, like something suited for climbing, something that would typically used in a friction saver yet still considered "static" like Arbormaster then compare it vs a real "static" like a 48 strand Kern you should see a the differences in it's elongation within working loads. This is where they show how far you can expect it to stretch before hitting your 10:1 or 5:1 working load.
Then if you look at something like the Ultrex Plus (a high tech 12strand) vs Yalex (Poly 12 strand), you'll seea better example of how dramatically different they are when high tech fibers are thrown into the mix. Also, that video i mentioned you should watch is embedded in the Ultrex page.
So the charts are telling you a few things, how much you can expect it to stretch while climbing & bouncing around on it within that safe WLL, how far its going to stretch/elongate beyond that WLL before reaching it's MBS & eventually breaking. It's also going to give you the Specific Gravity. It's all kinda hard to explain on paper.. i may also be lacking the technical knowledge to explain it better as well.. (especially the Specific Gravity part, which i think is the crux if this conversation) I kinda just reluctantly follow the herd on this topic & try not to be the "test dummy" as you would say..
Because a friction saver has two legs, it would be twice as strong. As long as there isn't any significant shock loading, there shouldn't be a problem. Rope stretching would help with shock loads also.
You might want to put some type of cover on it to prevent snagging. The cover would also help if you wanted to make it adjustable.
You might want to put some type of cover on it to prevent snagging. The cover would also help if you wanted to make it adjustable.
MikePowers321
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Leeds, Ny
I like having rope or webbing that is quite stiff in order to make retrieval easier. I could see 1/4” amsteel snagging or wrapping branches quite easily if you dont retrieve with throwline
Jimmycrackcorn
Participating member
- Location
- Boston
Brock.. just so he understands, you mean cover as in sheath, not like a baggy chaffe guard, correct?
I've messed around with those typical chafe guards & wrapping a prusik around them & i noticed the rope underneath slips right though the Prusik..
Jimmycrackcorn
Participating member
- Location
- Boston
Yes, i can see that happening as well.
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
Regarding stretch in a ring to ring:
I don’t see the point, even if you make it out of a line that has 10% elongation at 700 lbs poand is 10’ long then put that in a basket formation you still won’t have any energy dampening.
I’d look at required burry lengths, and as was mentioned a chaff sleeve there are many better choices
I don’t see the point, even if you make it out of a line that has 10% elongation at 700 lbs poand is 10’ long then put that in a basket formation you still won’t have any energy dampening.
I’d look at required burry lengths, and as was mentioned a chaff sleeve there are many better choices
Don't know much about Amsteel except that when used as hawsers in shipping, it floats, but I use dyneema fishing line and it has almost zero stretch. It's like wire rope and will telegraph a nibble hundreds of feet.
Would something with almost zero stretch be good for prusik loops, for example on my wire-core lanyard? My current prusik loop (3/8" polyester) jams on the lanyard, and I'm wondering whether something less like a rubber band would work better by not jamming as much.
Would something with almost zero stretch be good for prusik loops, for example on my wire-core lanyard? My current prusik loop (3/8" polyester) jams on the lanyard, and I'm wondering whether something less like a rubber band would work better by not jamming as much.
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Good point, Jimmy. A tight cover, if it is going to have a friction hitch on it.
@Woodwork, the type of construction on the brand of your 3/8 cord might be the problem, rather than the type of material. Double braids seem to be mushier than kernmantels.
Another possibility for the jamming is the hitch you're using.
@Woodwork, the type of construction on the brand of your 3/8 cord might be the problem, rather than the type of material. Double braids seem to be mushier than kernmantels.
Another possibility for the jamming is the hitch you're using.
Jimmycrackcorn
Participating member
- Location
- Boston
Could be a few different answers to this question depending on how your using it & what type of configuration it is.
What type of prusik/hitch are you using? Regular 6 wrap? Do you have something to tend it with? Or are we talking about a secondary anchor point? Also, are you referencing a loop or an e2e?
If your talking about a regular 6 wrap & it happens to be an e2e you may be able to do this...
What I've noticed is if you can stiffen the the top "bar" of the prusik the just past length of the 6 wraps, it won't lock up as bad. You may, or may not be able to achieve this with some really heavy adhesive lined heat shrink..
However, you'll only be able to get it on there if we're talking about an e2e, or if you have access to both ends, hence the reason i asked.
My experience with this trick was that I had a Rit Thimble loop that had unnecessarily long heat shrink on it & I didn't like the way it was reducing the usable length as well as keeping the end coils spaced away from the others.. I took to trimming it the shrink back a bit to get the tiny bit of length i was looking for back, however, once i trimmed it back a bit, i noticed it was now locking on the rope alot harder, thus it was allot harder to manipulate while climbing with it. It's still useable, but not my go to anymore.
Now, talking about a stiffer cord, if i try to use this same 8mm Thimble on a 10mm cord, even though the coils are tight together & it is cinched down, it won't even grab. The only way is to seriously dress it down a couple times.. i believe the 8mm doesn't have enough flex to bend small enough around the 10mm i was experimenting with it on...
So in theory, yes, something stiffer may work better, but that's not too say its not without limitation & or wont work in safely in some combinations.
Ironically enough speaking of prusik cords, I actually just bought some soft 8mm double braid & a stiffer 8mm kernmantle to experiment with.. The double braid is that 8mm chinese GM climbing junk you see all over the i-net. I plan on sending it out with some other stuff I'm going to get break tested. I'm just curious to see what happens with it.
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Thanks for your replies, Brocky and Jimmycrackcorn.
I'm just using a simple basic prusik that looks like this and tending it with my hand (no pulley) on my Yale Maxi-Flip steel-core lanyard.
The 3/8" polyester is some so-called "dock line" I bought on ebay.
I guess I just need to experiment with different materials for my prusik loop. (Being an amateur / hobbyist, I don't climb all the time, especially not in this hot weather!)
Thanks again.
I'm just using a simple basic prusik that looks like this and tending it with my hand (no pulley) on my Yale Maxi-Flip steel-core lanyard.
The 3/8" polyester is some so-called "dock line" I bought on ebay.
I guess I just need to experiment with different materials for my prusik loop. (Being an amateur / hobbyist, I don't climb all the time, especially not in this hot weather!)
Thanks again.
Jimmycrackcorn
Participating member
- Location
- Boston
No problem..
I couldn't see your link, but what I've noticed with allot of dock lines is that they are real mushy & made of nylon that's probably why it's getting so tight...
If you want to play around with cordages, hop back on eBay or Amazon & try to find some higher rated 8, 9 or 10mm accessory cord, buy short 5-10ft sections & pay attention to their construction..
A cord i just got today & i literally just put down to reply was from Ravenox, i don't think i got a smoking deal on it or anything but for $13 i had 10ft of it here on a couple days (actually pricey if you ask me).. It's a kernmantle construction, comes in a bunch of different colors & has a tensile if 3700... There's a ton of different ppl who make the stuff.. DMM, Edelrid, T-berger, Edelwiess, Samson, Yale, Ravenox, Mammut, Maxim, OmniProGear... I could go on & on.. Basically every climbing outfit has an iteration of it. Personally, i only wanted one who's description mentioned "prusik" or "anchor building" & steered away from the ones who were referencing it for use as "hd shoe laces" or "tent lines".. as you are putting your safety on it after all.. for example, Teufelberger has 3 different accessory lines, one nylon, one poly & then another marketed as prusik use.. just remeber, some of these accessory cords are not made for heat, so don't go crazy with it...
Once you figure out what you like, do yourself a favor & buy a Spliced or sewn version of similar or identical design just to make life easier.
Just fyi.. just saw some from edelrid for $.50prft..
That's really good info, thank you Jimmycrackcorn. I was actually thinking about buying the Treestuff $80 "Bag o Rope" scraps to experiment with. Was also considering buying a selection of six pieces of different types of hitch cord from Wesspur, but I don't really need the high temperature resistance of hitch cord on my lanyard, since it should never get hot.
Right now on my lanyard I have a piece of 3/8 nylon "solid braid" (the cheap stuff you buy at a hardware store) which I made into a "balanced Distel" for a friction hitch (experimental – not sure this will be safe at all so don't do what I do)...I'm hoping that since the (modified) Distel is symmetrical, it will grab equally well in either direction (since I use a 2-in-1 lanyard)...will report back when I know more.
Have several trees to prune here, but I'm waiting until the farmer adjacent to my house harvests his field so that I can just drag all the debris out into the field and burn it...
I haven't tried it yet, honestly. I'm hoping it will jam less than my prusik. I'll try it in a week or so...
IIRC, it has three turns on top and three on the bottom. It may be that it jams because the nylon solid braid stretches too much. Really want to buy that "Bag o' Rope" to try different cord types.
Ronhayden, Sorry, I didn't mean to derail your thread.
IIRC, it has three turns on top and three on the bottom. It may be that it jams because the nylon solid braid stretches too much. Really want to buy that "Bag o' Rope" to try different cord types.
Ronhayden, Sorry, I didn't mean to derail your thread.
