Alternative to clove hitch for rigging short trunk sections

Phil

Phil

Carpal tunnel level member
Location
Oak Lawn, IL
@Muggs
Came across this article on your website the other day: https://www.educatedclimber.com/the-proper-use-of-a-clove-hitch/
I've often thought about this. I have been involved in many trainings where the end line clove with two half hitches is taught as the go-to rigging knot when the situation is a piece with no stub or unions to "capture" a running bowline. The clove is secure and will mitigate the risk of the knot slipping towards the end of the piece. Although it is sometimes difficult to untie after a heavy load.

The question then becomes, what's the alternative preferred way to attach the rigging line? I admittedly seldom use the clove in an end line rigging scenario but with how often it is taught, I am curious what other options folks are using.
 
A half hitch in front of your running bow is all you need. Some prefer a marl if the piece is especially slippery. I use a Daisy Chain Hitch in place of the running bow, but exact same idea.

I believe that the recommendation for the endline clove in rigging is a historical holdover from the days of natural fibre 3 strand ropes. These lines had lots of grip and friction. They were secure in an endline clove usage. Modern cordage is just so slippery, that when used with an endline clove, especially when combined with slippery bark, their security in rigging is questionable at best. I have seen several instances where endline cloves have come right off of pieces in the rigging, even with 2 half hitch backups. I have seen several other instances where the piece takes a shock load and then the clove is hopelessly locked down on the piece, almost impossible to tie.

Hopefully someone older and wiser will chime in on this topic.
 
Has the cow hitch with better half and a tucked tail ever been used by anyone? I'm thinking of a scenario where the piece is like only 1-2' long and no room for a half hitch/running bowline combo.
 
I don’t do a lot of zip lining, but have done a bit more recently.

My conundrum is how to ensure the piece of trunk (say between 6” and a foot) doesn’t drop out of the strop you’re using, because you can’t apply tension to it.
Ive cut grooves to improve its hold, but I have had a couple of close shaves where the piece has dropped out narrowly missing an expensive fence.
 
Many times I use flat webbing eye/eye slings to choke while rigging. doing a double wrap w the choker adds lots of friction. Since the load is generated by two flats rather than a flat and round there's less, almost no, chance of dropping off. The choke point can be spun around so that the sling is always loaded too.

Clove hitch is low on my choice list.
 
I can see double wrapping flat webbing working well. I still like to try to find solutions that don't involve extra gear. So if I forget webbing straps, can I confidently rig the piece with just the lowering line? There is a basal tie method I've seen some climbers use where they take the tail of their line, wrap the base of the tree in almost a cow hitch style, but end it by tieing a bowline around the standing part of the line and also capturing the bight of what would have been the structure of the cow hitch. This allows the basal tie to remain snug to the tree regardless of what direction the standing part might get pulled. Also prevents slack from entering the basal tie if the climber removes all their weight from the system. I don't have a way to mock that up for a photo right now but I'm curious if that would work when loaded in a rigging scenario.
 
This is all interesting to read. I was not taught the end line clove for rigging when first learning, but eventually incorporated it. Now it’s a regular tie-off in my work. There are definitely times for other knots, but I find it extremely reliable.
 
In defense of the clove hitch...do Buzzers give a Rip that the clove Ken be used effectively in a rigging scenario? TDS
I use the tendency to roll to sweat the line at the rigging point of attachment. For solo lifts, I set the rigging line on The Goodes with a stopper knot at the block. Climb to the point of attachment and tie the clove. With the working end I shift the coils to the right and wrench the hitch to tighten and align under the block. Repeating until tight and then the half hitches. Make the cut with relief cuts below the hinge then lower myself down and lift the piece.
I almost always cut and chuck the fat chunks, but a clove with better halves can be a termination knot after a half hitch or marl on the rigged piece
The clove is multi-directional and doesn't require as much reaching around the piece to dress
 
Muggs said:
A half hitch in front of your running bow is all you need. Some prefer a marl if the piece is especially slippery. I use a Daisy Chain Hitch in place of the running bow, but exact same idea.

I believe that the recommendation for the endline clove in rigging is a historical holdover from the days of natural fibre 3 strand ropes. These lines had lots of grip and friction. They were secure in an endline clove usage. Modern cordage is just so slippery, that when used with an endline clove, especially when combined with slippery bark, their security in rigging is questionable at best. I have seen several instances where endline cloves have come right off of pieces in the rigging, even with 2 half hitch backups. I have seen several other instances where the piece takes a shock load and then the clove is hopelessly locked down on the piece, almost impossible to tie.

Hopefully someone older and wiser will chime in on this topic.
Click to expand...
it doesn't lock up because it's been shock loaded. It locks up because it's inverted. The clove is a directional knot... if you know for sure that the piece is either but or tip heavy, you tie it accordingly. When you're tying close to the balance point and not sure which way the piece is weighted then the clove is not a good option. Go with running bowline there.

I've never seen the clove hitch slip, but I have seen one that wasn't backed up with the half hitches roll out... on smooth bark trees or during the spring growing season where the bark isn't attached well to the wood (tulip trees are known to develop a slimy film between the bark and the wood in the spring and early summer, you do need to be careful... there's nothing wrong with cutting a notch to seat the rope.
 
No clove for me .....I have lost a few pieces with it eve with complimentary halves....as soon as the piece came off the cut and the groundie misjudged and locked a bit it rolled out. I could have screamed as it barely missed the roof. Did it again another time and same result. Works good on rough bark and light btush pieces as fast to tie....or taking multiple branches that are fairly light.
 
the clove can't roll when its backed up with 2 half hitches. Had another old friend and climber that wouldn't use the knot again after he saw one roll out. I've seen both a clove hitch roll out and a running bowline pull out...
 
For something like this I would tie a cow hitch with a better half, and that never came off for me. If it were a really short piece I’d cut a couple shallow kerfs for the rope to stay in. I also really like Tom’s suggestion of using webbing straps.

I did have a running bowline with half hitch slip out on a smooth white pine log on a very rainy morning. That completely sucked. The knot was dressed properly and the half hitch seated a foot away from the bowline as it should have been.
 
I once had a branch on a Norway Maple (famously brittle) that split out longitudinally while cutting, and the split ran from behind the half hitch all the way past the knot, making them both useless. The piece just went flying. Somehow didn't damage anything. Encourages me to this day to put more distance between my half hitch and my knot.
 
Short answer: Running DBY with a pre-fix of a Half Hitch, sometimes several Halfs in weak piece to spread out stress and better chance of keeping if piece starts to crush or crumble during lowering. Side forces are real on target, shipyards would put a 'spanner board' across top of crate lowered by sling on hook so the weight of the load x angle to hook did not crush crate on lift. i talk here about 2 forms of Half Hitch: terminating stopper Hitch vs. as a pre-fix like more of a Bend, continuing not terminating force flow. Also to other side of puzzle have placed noches in target at opposing arc points to bed rope into..
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To be clear please, are we saying Clove unrolled/spun from Half Hitches around Standing Part or free ranging in tail?
>>Did Halfs come undone like from tail or Clove walk over leaving them?
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Of course Half's need set harder to seat in stiffer line, Half's should have some tail after and be end to end train. knudeNoggin has related to me that fig8 free ranging in tail is better than Half Hitch by some tests. Clove is best as right angle pull on host, in fixed anchor position like most, so lengthwise pull/parallel to host already requires more care. Backwards pull on 2 cloves is what i like for lengthwise pull of throw line to real line tho as a greater pressure with like some Awning spice*. A pre-fix of spaced Half Hitch(continuous type) should resolve most issues. Half Hitch pre-fix spaced to running DBY in just rope. Or evolved to baby sling**, sometimes with the pre-fix of Half Hitch for larger or more unwieldy, as better capture. Hitching close to CoG thus might be problem in short stubby rollouts, where is a right angle pull as prescribed for anchor position, but perhaps less so for unfixed/free ranging position of load.

Reading between lines of comprehensive ABok for consistent princi-pals as sound wide base, is best i think. So much revealed, some passing comments seem innocuous on first tour, are missed golden nuggets later in context of examples, and so then that next lesson not seen quite as well. To me, Clove 'organically' wants to pull form side crossing, need to force to pull from close face already a downgrade to more pull open. To opposing face crossing(top in a downward pull) need to force and then further balance end pulls to keep position or crossing wants to go to most organic side crossing model, never naturally floating to load pull side/spin. Halfs made around Standing Part keeping forced position, but not in side position of cranking. A downside to massive ABoK, is teñd to see how many can tie and miss the connecting nuances in classic journey vs. destination form.
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ABoK Lesson# 480/481/pg.077: 2/2 Taut & Open Prussic
i cut my teeth in our land on a doubled Cove of 2/2 Tautline even that that walks w/o fig8. limiter. Under hard use it would walk to limiter. Reverse top tier to be still 2/2 but as Open Prussic now gives counter torque of much less walk, if any, but religiously backup in lifeline use as part of whole mantra unbroken. i only look to crossings off host,against Standing Part/Backhands to give counter torque.
Side Note: ABoK Lesson# 311/pg.1857: If the Half Hitch is reversed most of the torsion is eliminated and there is little tendency for the knot to twist.
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Best science on a lengthwise pull, of standard lowering not at CoG, a Half Hitch(now talking about continuous Half Hitch type as if a pre-fix as if a Bend, not Termination Half Hitch as stopper) shown ABoK Lesson# 1733+/pg.298+: CHAPTER 22: HITCHES TO MASTS, RIGGING,
AND CABLE (Lengthwise Pull) as VERY key to directionality of pulls, (classically leaving Timber behind for Killik). ABoK Lesson# 1662+/pg.290+: CHAPTER 21: HITCHES TO SPAR AND RAIL
(RIGHT-ANGLE PULL) really starts the discussion with the simpler/cleaner forms of right angle to host . Timber starts as extended Terminating Half Hitch, always noting best to cross over not under to start as in ABoK Lesson# 1668/pg.290 Fig8 style. i do still require at least 3 tucks, and build to finish at opposing side of host(for greatest seating nip) than the pull source(load), preceding twirls just spacers to this highesest intensity position of nip.
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Continuous Half Hitch pre-fix should resolve most issues.
Never have had problem with running DBY; if read rope in hand as compliant to arc around self, a first test for me on any rope. Real stiff ropes bring things more towards the no-go of monofilament for Bowline. I do pre-fix w/HH on a lengthwise/parallel to host pull. Switch to baby slings to always carry a top upgrade in utility to expansion, but ever so, so much more to realizing system as modular components , each then availed to own study. eye2eye sling choked , not as good as is note micro exactly immediately self adjusting. Even then may pre-fix w/HH on target and baby sling choked may be inline to small branch, pre-fix moderating hit to less output, giving proper inline pull on target, and another grab.
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i have commented a fair amount of times about Ken/Rip showing Clove on load for lowering(for Clove and no HH pre-fix), but respect their works that i L-earned much from. Greater bark texture/CoF helps stop walk too, jam under branch as like Awning's lock also doable.
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* I do prefer 2 spaced Cloves , in throw line around real rope as host, each pulled backwards (input after output so has to cross self). i find no greater profile problem on drag thru tree, and more self locking Awning Knot type forces brought into play, as tighter/more positive grab. ABoK Lesson#1854/pg.310: Awning Knot(nice hold properly set and correct kick to release) ABoK . Lengthwise pull on Clove to opposing direction/not crossing self on lengthwise pull; would characterize to opposite somewhat forces of not self lock but trying to pick lock open in my crazy internal cartoon imageries...
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**Evolved is apt as once committed to carrying carabineer/sling sets anytime went upstairs, understanding s and creativity in rigging advanced greatly. Rigs became component systems and each component got more intense focus/study. Used to increase or decrease frictions, several items at once sometimes, walk a main target to almost fail and hard drop another piece to sharp pull on slanted rig line to shear then main target across off roof etc.
Then there is this preserved jewel:
 
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