Air to ground communication

T

Treebeard

Location
Charleston, SC
one of the more fustrating things for me as a climber is communicating to ground control. I've used two way radios but the problem is either batteries not charged, or to much interference. the last few years i've tried using hand signs accompanied with a whistle to get my point across. this seems to work. I was wondering what other people do or use? it is a topic that i do not hear (no punn intended) much of.
 
I understand your frustration. There's been times I wanted the load raised up and the let it down, other times I want it to run and they stop it short. I may want the load to swing and then drop, but they drop it too soon. All of these things posed a threat to either my safety or potential property damage. I have deleloped hand signals that work very well, they are very similar to the hand signals for crane oprtations. We've been doing this for a couple of years with good succsess. Electronic communication is often too difficult, expensive and I would usually break then while climbing.
 
I too understand your frustration. I have one more barrier. My co worker are mostly mexicans who don't speak much english. I know a few words and phrases that get me by. I also used to have a little anger manage problem and used to throw my hard hat at co workers to get their attention until they got me a fox whistle that worked pretty well. I am over that now with a little therapy. Some times you can exsplain all you want what you want them to do but its not always just that easy. Things just don't always go exactly as we plan. We are only human and need to be ready for the unexspected. I am sure you have been on the ground in their shoes. I know I have. The best solution is patince and understanding.
 
I was wondering if hand signs seem to be the safest and most efficient why hasn't there been a general description of signs for the tree industry. it was mentioned that crane operators have there own, divers have signs that are taught and are a need to know part of learning. is it possible to have signs as a need to know part of tree work. I might have taught a groundy one paticular sign and he/she goes to a different company. the climber there might use that same sign for a different task , yikes, potential accident. having another standard might not be appreciated but if it is for a safer work place maybe it should be looked at.
 
i've been a groundman (not a groundie)for a long time.hand signals is the best way i've found to communicate with a climber.if the groundman is not paying attention he sucks or he we never taught right.i think a climber should throw something in there direction like a stick not a hard hat.not very professal and then you don't have one on for your safty.so maybe all you climbers that complain about groundmen,maybe you should take time out to teach them wether they are mexican or others
 
I have a Fox40 whistle on my belt for gaining the attention of busy groundies over the noise of saws or even the chipper. Only time it won't work is if they are right next to the chipper with hearing protection.
 
I'm sorry if I insulted any groundsmen out there, but the point was to mention a part of tree work that doesn't get much attention. It is definately part of training w/ groundsmen that work w/me but was wandering if they is a standard of "tree signs" that we all can use or is it climbers choice on what he/she chooses. a climber can only be as good as his/her ground help.
 
it's nice to to hear a climber say nice things about groundmen.maybe some climbers should get together and make some uniform signs.i think it would help alot of people
 
It would be nice if a ground man could look up and see what and how you have something tied off and know what to do. I miss the days of having a guy who knew my every move and worked with me step by step not missing one. A climber is only as good as his groundman and same goes for the groundman. When do certain things in steps and follow these steps we can be much more efficient. I just know I can get worked up when I have to wait on someone or they just don't know.
 
Very interesting to hear your points in regard to cross communication between climber and groundstaff, climbers in the UK are encouraged to carry a whistle with them, but this is to be used in case of an on site emergency, generally UK arborists are taught that the sound of a whistle blowing means to stop all work and turn off all machinery (makes up part of our aerial rescue procedure). Hand signals are shown to be one of the most effective communication tools, and taking the time to communicate with your groundstaff prior to any tree operations is imperative, a work plan for operations should be high on the list of everyones' prioriites so all parties know what to expect, yet as many of you have said the unexpected does happen, the untrained groundstaff may not let enough slack rope run or pull over the section before the back cut is completed. Shouting between climber and groundstaff should alwsys be discouraged, firstly it may instill panic to 3rd Parties watching/passing and also does nothing for your client/customer relations. Maybe standardisation of hand signals is the way forward, or the use of more advanced radio communicatiopns - similar to hands free cellphone types. Pre-planning of arboricultural operations and communication/training of groundstaff will contribute to an easier/safer operation.
 
Whats up all.Finally got to login. It's been a long frustrating wait
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Anyway, a good groundman makes the climber look even better
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But just about all the very limited english speaking cronies I've been dealing with dont seem to have the "sense" to repeat a task. I do try and practice my spanish(that is a wide group, so take it easy)and talk with them. There's just something missing.Makes it hard to teach and stay calm when you need that piece away from you as you planned.

A good crew wont have to say much to each other later.
 
Sawdust touched on a good point. Many times just getting a groundie to properly fuel a saw without screwing it up is a major accomplishment. Many guys cannot repeat the same task you instructed them on yesterday. No wonder I end up doing so much myself such as the illegal 'grabb-n-toss' one hand method. It's rare to have a guy who can untie a running boline, let alone tie one. My last two groundies still got baffled on how to tie a handline on my lifeline for me after 3 months of doing it on a daily basis. I'm about to the point of just wanting them to stay clear so they don't get hurt and let me handle the tree.
Sorry for the 'tude tonight. Just frustrated. I seem to get along better with trees than people.
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Gents,
I can obvioulsy understand your frustration when it comes to dealing with "inadequate" groundstaff, there is nothing worse than having a lowering line pulled into the canopy and having to spend 20 minutes trying to untie it, or pulling your saw up 10ft only to watch it spinning back down to solid ground. So what can be done? We are very fortunate over here in the UK that we have the National Proficiency Tests Council (NPTC) assessment scheme, to put it in a nutshell with our legislation all professsional saw users must hold a certificate of competence, NPTC offers independant assessment to trainees who have been taught to a standard that has been laid down within a "Course Syllabus". The NPTC units on offer cover everything from chainsaw maintenance (fuelling, starting etc) through to pruning and dismantling. When you therefore employ either a groundie or a climber it is the NPTC units you hold that employers are interested in not only do they go part way to satisfying there legal obligation but also they can be assured that the employee has been trained to a national standard and has been independantly examined in that area. Don't get me wrong the system is not perfect and it does not give trainees automatic 'common sense' but you can be assured that the climber you employ or the groundstaff working for you can at least fuel and start a saw, fell a small tree, climb and perform aerial rescue, how you go onto develop those skills within your workplace is entirely down to yourselves (CPD - Continuing Professional development or Update training) Maybe take a look at www.nptc.org.uk
 
It might not be the signal that is the problem. It may be that what you are asking the person to do is a foreign concept to them, due to their inexperience. Let's use the signal for "cut that branch" as an example, ok?

Say you are on the ground, directing the job, and want the climber in the tree to cut a particular limb. If the bucket truck engine is running, or an air conditioner is on, they can't hear you very well. So you signal.

If a limb forks close to the trunk, and the lower section is too close to the ground, another tree, or whatever, it can be better to cut half of it off, rather that thin it. The climber is obliviously thining away, which is a complete waste of time, since that limb is going to have to come off, as soon as you can get their attention.

Trying to communicate this with hand signals has little to do with the particular sign language you select, but with the fact that the climber has missed the point of this particular job. Somehow, in the walkthrough, or the pre-climb inspection, they did not notice the opportunity for a big timesaver by making a big cut early in the pruning operation. These big cuts need to be made right off the bat, because they clear large areas for inspection, access, and fine pruning, if necessary.

I guess the point of all this is that, in many cases, it is not the unfamiliarity with the signal, it is the unfamiliarity with their job that is the problem.
 
In the tree, i rev (not all the way) and idle my saw a few times, in such a fashion that is not usual in cutting. Once i have their attention, we don't do to bad with hand signals. This seems to work better than whistle for me, my saws seem to last longer thn the dealer expects; mechanics too.

Though i do know what you mean about guys that can't figure out to do the same repetitive task, repetitively! Even the same day, especially when you sent a light load the first time in a rig to make sure all lines, anchors and persons where stretched, placed ready to go!

i use sling and 'biners on all loads virtually. A lot of that decision had to do with ground time on untying knots, especially with gloves, with varying personel. Now if the get slow on the slings, or there are a 'package' of several loaded slings, i just have 'em unclip the 'biner and i get the line back while they are getting slings off etc. i'll have more with me, usually preset to be cut; soon as the rope comes back up.
 
Don't swim alone, don't climb alone?

Lower everything down on a 2:1; untie short leg from upper anchor, thread out of load on ground (drawing free end out of load and back up), then rig next 2:1 load(s). Repeat...

Any, even numbered : 1 (2:1 etc.)mechanical advantage system, should have the possibility of leaving the terminated leg up with you. Any, odd numbered : 1 (1:1, 3:1) would naturally have the termination on the load, out of reach of climber in typical lowering scenarios.
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[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: TheTreeSpyder ]

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: TheTreeSpyder ]
 
The groundperson is generally the most important person on the jobsite. This should be a highly trained individual, as he could have to perform an aerial rescue one day. A great goundperson knows and can anticipate the climbers every move, especially on those rigging jobs. The company I work for spends about 25,000 per year on professional training. I am personally familiar with most types of rigging equipment, from the PW3 to the Good, the Ken Johnson to the Hobbs, blocks, pulleys, mechanical advantage, etc. and understand the systems and when they are used. I understand cycles to failure and can select the blocks and ropes for the size and species we are working with. I was not born knowing all of these things. Training is paramount, as is a Voice Command Response and hand signal system. A fox 40 is a great tool. We never throw things at each other either. Not all groundpeople are morons.
PS I can also get a climber out of a tree if need be, I climb also, so I understand the climbing system. Train your people!
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