A question of topping and severe drop crotching???

Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

You have to be able to walk away from the table if you are going to negotiate. That's what it's about.

I see your point about feeding the family. I was a single parent of 3 kids at one time, in debt after my first wife died and didn't have the luxury of saying no to much work.


Flash, maybe you'll have to look farther afield for clients that will heed your advice.
 
Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

Well Hump, one of my crews is still subcontracted in another city with some of our equipment, so they and I are still recieving full time pay from that. Me and the rest of the guys here in Tulsa are working about 25-30 hrs a week. Not hurting really. Its just that for the last few weeks we could have worked 35-45 if we could have gotten these jobs that I am speaking of. So yes, there is a little frustration here, if ya know what I am saying.

Derrick Hulsey
beer.gif
 
Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

Totally disagree!I am able to talk about 95-98% of the topping calls we field into proper pruning if not I walk period!
I can count lost jobs from not topping over the last five years on one hand not many at all>
 
Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

Ah Derrick, then don't sweat that. Try some of the stuff mentioned here like the TCIA info pamphlets if you're not doing that already. Look at them as opportunities to try different approaches. Be daring in how you do it since you really don't want the work if it's going to be topping.
 
Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

Well treehumper, it is just more for my guys, but also for me. I would like to be busier. It just stinks when like you get a weeks worth of calls for work and it is the same [bad word] and bull story.

The other frustrating thing is that in the past two and a half years I have gotten request for topping, maybe like 4 times, seriously, but in the last 6 mos. it has been like 50-100. Just ridiculous. Part of it is due to the poor pruning practices of jackoffs who were out cutting trees after the icestorm. It just sucks.


Derrick Hulsey
 
Derrick, the situation you are in with massive ice storm damage is exactly why the regulations allow some leeway.

Without flexibility you are forced to throw your clients to the wolves. When you look at a damaged tree, what is your plan for restoring structural and aesthetic integrity? Obviously, standard pruning practices may not achieve this. Some restructuring and apical redirection may be required.

Just because this is a long term procedure should not disable you from applying it. Who amongst us have not seen severely damaged trees from storms in the distant past that have made amazing recoveries and are now beautiful, character trees? The ones that we don't see are the ones that had no chance to be corrected and self-destructed.

ANSI A300 (Part 1)-2008

Definition of topping
4.51 topping: Reduction of tree size using internodal cuts without regard to tree health or structural integrity.

(Please note the phrase: without regard to tree health or structural integrity.)

6.3 Restoration: Restoration shall consist of selective pruning to redevelop structure, form and appearance of severely pruned, vandalized or damaged trees.


So if you have a specific plan to restructure and salvage a tree, especially when the client prefers to keep the tree, then this is allowed. The fear of topping often clouds our vision of what is possible to achieve with a severely damaged tree. There are many more options between standard pruning cuts and removal.

Dave
 
Humper and DSmc you guys have provided me with some great insight into things that I can do. Thanks

Not to get off track in my last post or the one before that I used a saying that many people use Rooster and Bull story but the saying is different than what I just posted, it was a 4 letter word, but in that saying it has no grotesque meaning and it is blocked out, does a moderator do this, or is it just that certain words are redflagged? The word is just another name for a male chicken. Kind of funny!!!
Also, after severe storms trees will sprout severe amounts of suckers and watersprouts from stress and a # of other factors. When we trim out trees we sort through that sucker growth and remove what is growing straight up, what is going to grow into other large limbs, and what has damage, such as squirrel damage, etc. and leave the rest. Alot of services I have noticed leave trees looking completely "naked" if you no what I mean, and this just causes more excessive sprouting. The trees never have a chance to get back to their normal cycle of growth.

Derrick Hulsey
beer.gif
 
The storm damaged tree I did recently showed that same type of suckering. I was removing a limb that broke in a more recent storm. There was suckering from that occurred after the original damage was done. Fortunately the owner listened when I explained the need to retain much of the suckering since there was little left of the original crown. To add insult to injury the climber that did the work from the first storm spiked up the tree.

PM me the rooster and bull story....
 
Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

Have you considered "pollard" pruning as an alternative to removal, or walking away from work? If you educate the client & get in there as thier arborist that does thier tree-work - then you have the opportunity over the next several years to incrementally restore the crown. Maybe a pollard beginning is the way to bring the tree into better shape ultimately & score a customer for repeat business for the the furure. I would personally rather see a tree "pollarded" under the ongoing care of an arborist who cares - than a one-time "topping" done by Brand-X.
 
You said it correctly and by the book right there! Thank You!
A thoughtful plan laid out by a caring arborist, with intent to follow up over time. That is not "topping". And is WAY better than removal, in many cases.
Well said Dave!
 
Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

There is no guarantee anyone will ever spend any money ever to perform proper follow-up pollarding. Even if they say they will & have a great attitude towards it. Properties are sold, people move, money priorities change & so forth. Don't cut yourself off at the knees before you even get started man!
But you're right it is hard to find people willing to spend the money on proper follow up. But thats not your problem right now. It sounds to me like you have plenty of potential customers interested in initial pollard pruning. worry about the follow up later when it is time to follow up.
 
Stay with what you think is right. Avoid excessive topping at all measures. It promotes decay and down the road the topped limbs are at risk. Try to talk them into drop crotch pruning or weight reduction pruning without exposing heartwood. Stick with your integrity. It will get you further.
 
I would like to first say that although I am against topping a healthy tree, I have come to understand that making a marginal cut on a tree that was storm damaged but has about 60% salvagable would be acceptable. Any part of the tree not damaged is to be maintained as a healthy tree. I seem to remember reading something about this in reguards to hurricane damaged trees. Sticking to your guns Flashtop is hard and admirable.
Noel glad to see you have a good sense of humor but that thread is dead. We can leave it that way.
Hollen, I stopped reading after your second post because you really sicken me. You really are just a fire starter and are bad for the site.
Sorry for jackin the thread for that moment Flashtop.
 
I will go ahead and add to this topic by saying that in the last 2 winters of ice storms, we made plenty of topping cuts intentionally. Some of the trees with the entire tops broken out had absolutely nothing (not even a sucker) to cut back to, and rather than cut huge limbs out of the tree and disfigure it further, we cut them back below the breaks and let them sprout. We have already started going back to some of these trees and doing restoration pruning on these stobs to help the trees decide which sprouts to keep. I know that you are still going to encounter trees there that may require a few topping cuts to remove broken or jagged ends, but hopefully none that you feel like you need to top the entire tree. Just don't feel like you have to make 100% proper cuts on every break, or else you will end up taking too much out of them.
 
Storm damage restoration is an unrewarding practice far too often. Making the best cut possible becomes tricky at best. Here in NJ we had an ice storm Feb 14 2007. Many of the breaks have since sprouted out and the decision on where to cut has been made simple. Before the sprouting it was anyone's guess. We are not magicians just tree workers.
 
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we made plenty of topping cuts intentionally...we cut them back below the breaks and let them sprout. ...I know that you are still going to encounter trees there that may require a few topping cuts to remove broken or jagged ends, but hopefully none that you feel like you need to top the entire tree. Just don't feel like you have to make 100% proper cuts on every break, or else you will end up taking too much out of them.

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Noel please read ANSI quoted above: you are NOT making topping cuts if you cut back to nodes (where a terminal bud was set).

Sorry to dupe with the attached--5+ years old and still the same news. It's more than semantics--nodes are natural targets. Selective heading is 100% proper pruning, the 1/3 Rule is a guideline at most.
 

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Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

Severe drop crotching is going to harm the tree in a similar way as topping. Water sprouts will grow like mad, decay will spread throughout that area of the tree, and in a few years the tree is going to need to come down. I realize that some trees have sentimental value and or are important, but sometimes a tree must come down. It could be more hazardous left with a severe drop crotch and create hazard.
 
Re: A question of topping and severe drop crotchin

Good article in December Arborist News by Gilman talking about heading cuts back to nodes, and restoration pruning. Not enough detail on cracked branches in such a short piece, and the schedule of restoration visits--every year or two?--shows zone 9-11 tree response, and maybe overstating the need for lack of experience.

On mature oaks I've found that just one restoration pruning 5 years after heading can be enough, if that is all you can sell.
 
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