3 cut prune

boreality

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boreal forest
That undercut, top cut farther out and final outside the collar cut image is in almost every publication. And....it's dangerous. Fine on backyard light fruit tree pruning but it turns into a saw snatcher on bigger cuts. How about we stop using this bad advice as our most primary education? See attachment above.
 

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One of my not so pet peeves... that training is 20 years out of date and still the biggest cause of saw snatch in the industry. I actually started doing a video on it. Its on the back burner for now though..

I made a recommendation on the last ansi pruning standard about the 3 cut diagram thy use... its ridiculous.. these guys are supposed to be industry leaders, and they keep feeding us such garbage...
 
As far as I know the latest teachings on "how to" perform a snap cut is that you line the top cut with the bottom cut just for the reason you both are stating. I've been using this method for over a year. Throw away your old books and buy some new. lol

I know what is my source? Probably 'Arborist News'.
 
I'll have to check when I get back home, but I'm pretty sure that the newest "Green" edition of the ISA Certified Arborist's Study Guide, instructs you to line up the top and bottom cuts, specifically to avoid getting your saw grabbed by the released branch.

The green edition of the study guide has been out for several years now.
 
pg 119..
diagram of the 3 cut method, with the second out beyond the first.
I just took the CA exam on Saturday... made a comment about the fact that they are still suing this diagram.. Its 20 years out of date.

I absolutely love this book. and would recommend it as the number one single book for anyone that wants to be a pro arb.. That said I strongly disagree with most of what is on that page and that little bit of time they devote to pruning is a real shame. and 10 years behind the times...

The philosophy of best way to prune is to make thinning cuts at the parent trunk is a huge misconception, still held by the vast majority of pro arbs, around here at least.
 
No reason not to make the top cut directly on top or even slightly behind the undercut...

bigger cuts should get a narrow notch undercut, meaning removal cuts, NOT pruning cuts, in general...
 
Why limit yourself. It really depends on what you want the branch to do. I'll align the upper and lower, mismatch with the top behind the bottom, vice versa, notch, etc… The primary point is to not make your detaching cuts the final ones. It is better to leave a stub to be severed with the final cut.
 
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The primary point is to not make your detaching cuts the final ones. It is better to leave a stub to be severed with the final cut.

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I with TH here. I think you are all reading too much into it. The diagram is about making a final cut, not removing and or reducing a branch, stem, lead or limb. That is another skill set. Possibly used in conjunction with a final cut.

My .02

Tony
 
The fact that well informed and seasoned professionals are not in complete agreement on what these old or new documents are intending to convey tells me that more clarity should be included.
Explain why. We know why, and I'm not pretending to instruct people who know this better than me anyway, but just to complete my thoughts....
It should be clarified that the sequence is intended for smaller pruning cuts only, and why ( preventing tear out) and is NOT appropriate for limb removal during takedowns. And say why (worker safety/saw grab). Show the better way, which is top cut to inside.
It's also not appropriate for larger pruning cuts for the same reason. Show the alternatives for this scenario: matching cuts or making a face cut first. Why would you not just use the method you use for removals? I think it's because of the greater chance that the piece will tear out.
 
excellent post Frax!

WHY?

That is the question....

why is this training material so lacking on a fundamental technique for the industry?

Why is there NO PLACE in all of industry publications that explains what you just did in two paragraphs?

Why does the ANSI A 300 pruning guideline still use the three cut diagram, and refer to the appendix to explain the cut, and even then give only a weak and vague explanation, taking all of page 10 to write two sentences that could have easily been included with the diagram.

why does the cert arb study guide pg 121 say that the three cut is used for removing large or heavy limbs... (although to their credit they do make a quick statement in parentheses that when using a chainsaw the top cut should be directly above the undercut)...

WHY?

Is it due to lack of understanding, lack of the ability to properly explain, or lack of desire to keep the masses properly informed, thereby preserving a competitive advantage for those firms that brand themselves as industry experts.
 
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I'll have to check when I get back home, but I'm pretty sure that the newest "Green" edition of the ISA Certified Arborist's Study Guide, instructs you to line up the top and bottom cuts, specifically to avoid getting your saw grabbed by the released branch.

The green edition of the study guide has been out for several years now.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does!
 
Why does it have to be a conspiracy? How about decision by committee. LIke adopting a new tool, new ideas take time to permeate and be accepted by an organization. There are the innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority and the curmudgeonly laggards. In a committee the makeup too often leans in favor of those that fit the latter categories. Do they more often represent large companies, of course. These are the ones that have the greatest expenses in having to comply and are most under the gun to do so. Small companies tending to fly under the radar can just ignore or if headed by a shrewd innovator or early adopter, use new ideas to their advantage competitively.

In many ways, it's agreeing on the wording to be used vs. the idea itself that can be the stumbling block - just look at the haggling over "shall" and "should". Consider the expense of updating all the printed and electronic media. The dissemination of the new materials and the collection and disposal of the old.

Get on the ANSI committees, get involved to champion these changes. Otherwise take note and be sure to educate your crews on the variations on the theme. It is not written in stone.
 
Right Daniel, it is a cost to them. Yet, when small companies complain of regs that will cost them it's ok that they should not go ahead? It is the inefficiency of capitalism that contributes to this mess. Regulation is a difficult and chaotic process. The interests of such diverse groups make it difficult to satisfy everyone. But that is how it will be if we wish to have the industry represent itself.

As for ANSI, talk to Mark or those that have served.
 
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DO you know that the board has a suggestion to not allow non board members speak at meetings unless they are asked a question? Anyone who thinks the ANSI committee is "us" needs to wake up!

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Daniel,

I've been involved with the Z133 committee for at least 15 years...maybe more, I've lost count.

NEVER has anyone been told that they can't participate.

I'll give you a day or so to back up what you're saying here and name names. Who said this? When?

If you don't...I'll play the BS Card.

Have you ever attended an ANSI meeting? Ever taken the time to write a comment? No conspiracies going on. EVERY comment that comes to the Z is sent to members and discussed in the New Business portion of each meeting.

The next Z meeting is on April 16th at a hotel near BWI. That's only 110 miles from Philly. Why don't you plan on attending?

I'm not familiar with how the meetings go for A300. Dane Buell is the chair, get hold of him.
 
an 'old' illustration -

386763-SherrillTreeBranchRemovalIllustration.jpg
 

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