2020-21 Grapple truck builds. One of the last glider kits ever made.

Tim Meagher

New member
Location
Orlando Fl
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I wanted to share what I've learned over the past 20 years on grapple trucks. I'm not a pro builder or anything, I'm just a guy that grew up in the tree service industry driving different trucks and wanting a better setup. The short story is, I became an equipment operator in 2000 or so. Like many of you, I've got hours on bobcats,grapple trucks and cranes.

I worked with the family tree business until 2009, then I joined my older brother working around modified cars. Performance parts sales and build fast street/race cars. It was difficult going from a field operator to a desk job with a computer. I wore another series of hats but grew into the controller . We currently employ 40 people and the business grew significantly over the years.

We focus on educating the customer and getting them the correct parts for their builds. We strive to be the best in our industry for tech videos, knowledge, customer service and going the extra mile. With that being said, thats what I look for whenever I want something new.

My father and younger brother had a few trucks built over the years. As we all know, its difficult to operate a business and get everything perfect. Each truck had its strengths and weaknesses . Let's start with the 4 trucks over the past few decades.

My parents started their business in 1982. Purchased a well used 1981 L8000 in the early 90's with a log loader. Leaked fluids,lacked power and didn't stop very well. 25 yard bed.
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2004- Purchased a 330hp C7 sterling 9501. My father always liked to wheel and deal. He purchased a large chassis, drove it to ox bodies in Alabama and talked them into building a 22ft bed for 12-14K or so. They had to push a few tables together to weld it all . Pretty sure they lost some money on that one! 50-55yds
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The truck was driven to Tampa and Hydraulic machinery installed a Prentice 2124 with load holding valves . I never tested the hydraulic pressure but I'm sure it was set to 4000psi! The truck would lift 8500lb into the side door, or 6500lbs over the side! It would lift almost anything you can grab. Loader was nice but the truck was way under powered. 260-270" wheelbase.

Sidenote, my father always put a smiley face on trucks. The Sterling had a smiley face sticker on the back of the loader.

2013- My father looks into a 2013 Western Star 4900SF Glider kit with a Reman 500hp Detroit diesel series 60. The glider kit program uses a new chassis with an old pre emissions engine and trans. You can get a reman engine,trans and rear ends. An older engine will go over a million miles and not break down as much as some of the newer engines. The performance is much different compared to newer trucks IMO.

He decides to build a dual purpose truck with a 50 yd dump body for hauling large amounts of mulch. Great idea, but the wheelbase got a little too long (310") . It was difficult to turn and once a year would break some bolts that held the rear differentials to the chassis. The trans was also used and pretty worn out. Now,The engine has broken down once to date when the turbo gave up. Extremely Reliable.

That truck was driven to hubler to install the Prentice 2124 loader, then back to Florida to have the body put on. A few issues with different people having their hands in the project.. Lessons learned. Its nice to deal with a single person that installs the loader and body.IMG_0357.PNG

2015- They pick up a Western Star 4700SF with a 450hp DD13 and a 288" wheelbase. It turns much better but the body is still only 50yds. Prentice 2124 with Rotobec 046 trash grapple. My brother's recycling business is doing well so he purchased a few 110 yard dump trailers. He really needed a rear mount loader again.08D26FAA-9198-4C10-B9C0-AC021A1A9BCB.png

A rear mount loader is superior to a mid mount IMO. You can build a larger bed and don't need to complicate things with a dumping hoist. A hoist also adds weight. You can also get the truck in tighter places and work off the back,or load trailers. Wider angle for loading material then a mid mount. Also less Diesel fumes IMO.

Most dump bodies are 40-50 yards and most rear mounts are 50-80 yards. Dump bodies have their place but as long as these trucks are you risk turning them over on unlevel ground while dumping or with weight in the nose of the body. It does take longer to unload small debris out of a rear mount but a skilled operator takes 5-20min at the dump.

2020- The Glider kit program is coming to end. Covid also hits . After the issues my brother had with his trucks over the years I push him into considering one last build. The two of us ironing out the kinks and getting it dialed in. He gives me the go ahead in June of 2020.

After building a few fast cars over the years and fine tuning other peoples builds I knew the importance of the right recipe. I spent hours doing research online and calling around talking to people. Not only grapple trucks, but all types of trucks. I wanted to really wrap my head around the entire process of building a truck. I spent about a month doing research.

July 2020. Once I was ready to place an order I quickly found I was too late to order a glider. Being the last year everyone was sold out of their allowed glider spots. I spent days calling around looking for a spot. Then I remembered Kustom truck in Oregon . Expensive but they've built some really nice trucks over the years. There is a T800 heavy haul that I may have looked at 100 times over the years.

For a Glider, you need a chassis and a Glider spot so that its legal.

I contacted Kustom and spoke with Harold Bettencourt. He has a few spots left! He puts me in touch with Wayne Burroughs of Burroughs diesel in Laurel, Mississippi for a chassis. I explain to Wayne what I'm after and we work thru a few rough drafts of the truck. Western star has a body builder page where you can view almost every detail on the truck. Radiator size, suspension, frame size etc.


I also discovered a website that allows you to adjust wheelbase, add bodies and cranes. Its extremely helpful . I spend hours on it dialing the truck wheelbase and bed size in. I emailed them to ask them to add the Palfinger M13 Loader. Very helpful group of people.



I want to take a minute to talk about CT. Cab to trunnion/tandems measurement. Its important to consider this instead of wheelbase for a few reasons. Weight placement,tail length and ride quality.

Wheelbase is center of front axle to center of trunnion/tandems. Some trucks have a longer cab or axle placement and that will effect wheelbase.

An example.

2013 Western star 4900SF with a 210"CT is a 300" wheelbase
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2020 Western star 4900SB with a 210"CT is a 283" wheelbase
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By choosing a Set back axle the truck gets a 17" shorter foot print. A little more front end weight also. Most people agree that over 283-290" WB it becomes really hard to turn these trucks . I can tell you that 310"WB sucked for around town. Too short on the wheelbase can also cause instability with too much tail weight or the truck can bounce.

Wayne sends over a proposal on July 22nd. I chose everything on the truck except the fuel tanks. My brother wanted large 23" diameter 120 gallon capacity incase we did storm work.

Chassis specs-
4900SB with the old school square hood . Throw back to the older trucks with old engines. We went overkill on the frame but will have the truck forever. 3/8x3 7/8 x 11-5/8 (3/8 outer with a 3/8 inner) I've seen some people use a thinner frame on these trucks (5/16 outer and a 1/4 inner) But most people use the 3/8 by 3/8.

20K front taper leaf axle. Supposed to ride easier then flat leaf. Although alot of Michigan trucks go to a 23K flat leaf since they haul massive amounts of weight.
Dual power steering and coolers
46K rears with a 4.10 final drive. 54" spacing 210"CT 284" wheelbase, long frame . Total truck length is 39'
Neway 52K air suspension (Its an upgrade over airliner and will handle off road better, its also lighter)
22918B heavy duty 18 speed with air to oil coolers. Water to oil coolers warm the oil quicker but eventually leak and can cause hefty repairs.
Eaton easy pedal clutch rated to 2050ft lb
Horton 2 speed fan clutch. Its electro magnet at low speed and has constant cooling that doesn't rob any power. Spring engagement for high speed. Less fan cycling and AC system will work better. May not be ideal for under 30* weather. Could lead to overcooling.
11 blade Kyser fan. We can always go to less fan blade if needed
1350sq in Radiator . Could've gone larger but with Florida being flat and a 2 speed fan I didn't think we needed it. More cooling will always take longer to warm up.
Fully polished alum wheels,full gauge package, battery cutoff,black interior,backup alarm
Battery mounted in cab. I wanted to keep it and the aftermarket relays (loader fan,fuel cooler fan ) out of the elements and save frame space.
Heavy duty AC compressor. Its Florida! Bed Attic will also keep the cab cooler . Another rear mount pro.
 

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I was supposed to get a quote from Harold weeks earlier but he never called. When I reach back out I'm told he passed away. I give my condolences and speak with his son Pete. Pete sends over the proposal on July 28th.

Now, I want to talk about engines for a minute. The 2013 Glider had a 500hp 12.7 Series 60 and it always seems lazy and underpowered on the stock turbocharger and tune. I wanted something strong this time. Something overkill.
We have 2000hp Toyota Supra race cars that are street driven. I also own Mitsubishi Evolutions. Basically a 4 cylinder AWD car developed from Rally cars from the 1990's.

One makes 1100hp and has a sequential transmission. The engine was built in 2007 and its got ALOT of runs on it. The recipe is always important!


With that being said we wanted a strong pre-emissions engine. The 14.6 liter Cat 3406 has a long history of being the top heavy haul engine for grunt. Its much more expensive then the Series 60 and the Cat tax is real! We went for the 6nz version of the Cat. It has a better gasket sealing surface then the 2ws version and is regarded as one of the best diesels ever made.

My brother and I look at the costs on the project carefully. The glider chassis is 15K more then a standard DD16 truck, and thats with a Detroit series 60. The cat was a bit more. We decide to go for it and wire the deposit to Wayne mid August.

September-Time passes and while I'm on vacation in Colorado, it hits me. The fuel tanks are too damn big. The truck will be used locally and doesn't need massive tanks , more front end weight. More importantly I wanted space for a large toolbox and hydraulic tank.

I call Wayne and he tells me its too late to make changes. We discuss changing the tanks once the truck is done. A few days go by and I call him again and explain that I'm trying to get the truck 100% perfect . He calls in a favor and gets the tanks changed from 23" 120 gallon's to 25" 80 gallon tanks. The diameter change will also save some space. Thank you Wayne!

October- My brother calls me on a friday to tell me he is going to sell the 4700SF now instead of later. He wants a second glider. I found one months earlier but the frame was only 25' long after the cab. We wanted a factory frame that was 28-29" after the cab.

I get back on the phone and call a few grapple body builders and frame professionals. Now, we all know that Facebook is the most powerful advertising platform online. It has the most reach. I contacted a handful of companies based on that.

I also did a search online. I looked carefully at the information and pictures . I got in touch with Edgewood welding in Somerset,PA. He doesn't use Facebook like everyone else, but has a website.


Honestly, I didn't like the seam on his beds but once I really dug into what's out there they are clearly talented. I called Edgewood and spoke to Brad Cole. We told him what we were after and spoke to a few people that had his beds in the field. He is extremely knowledgeable on Trucks, extending frames, beds and loaders. He is also one of the nicest ,most genuine person I've ever met.

My brother moves forward on the second Glider. A Black 2020 Western star 4900SB with a series 60, Allison 4500 auto, 46K rears on airliner suspension with 4.30 final drive. The axles needed to be moved from 175CT to 200CT for a 273" wheelbase and 24-24.5' bed.

He flies up to Wisconsin and drives it to Somerset , PA. Brad and his team get to work. Brad texts and calls every step of the way. It was pretty neat watching the black truck come together.

I used the truck science website a lot .

I made the decision to add a pusher and a tag axle. 20K non steer. Less moving parts and is simple compared to a steerable axle. The truck hauls alot of weight and I wanted more hauling/stopping ability . The extra axle will help spread the load out when backing into driveways. There are plans to add a grapple saw to one or both trucks.

We decided on a 24.5" bed for the 200" CT. Important to note that the western star has large mufflers and the bed needs to be 2" from them . This means the bed is 10" from the cab and space is lost. Some other trucks like the T800 or T880 have more muffler clearance so the bed can be closer to the cab.

If I was going to do it over again I would've gone with a 24' body. Give up some yardage but have a shorter tail. Air suspension rides better but it does sag with weight. This means when the tag is up the rear end is lower fully loaded. Not the end of the world, but noted.

We decide on a Palfinger M13A98 32' loader. Its 23' retracted and extends out to 32'. More modern technology then the other loaders on the market. It also has internal hoses so less lines can get hung up and broken. The load chart looks strong but most people agree that these loaders will only lift 4500-5000lb over tall sides with a trash grapple. It also has a heated seat and a canopy.

Mid October, The truck has the loader , axles and hydraulics mounted. I ask Brad for a favor. My father always added a smiley face to his trucks and passed away in August of 2020. I asked Brad to add a smiley face at rear window level to remember him.

" A What !? "

I go over it and he tells me its a first! His team draws it out and welds it to the front of the inside of the bed. The bed gets completed and Brad sends me pictures of the freshly painted bed . It looks better then the paint on the cab and has a mirror finish.

He texts me that they rolled it with a roller outside on a nice day.

I think to myself , How is that possible and not worry about the how, just the end result.

The next morning around 7AM I get a text with a time lapse video of the bed going on the truck. I'm excited on how good it looks!

I book a flight for Oct 30th to fly into Latobe,PA for 36 dollars out of Sanford ,FL on Spirit. Grab a taxi after a short wait and head into Somerset.

I arrive and its 40* and rainy. My plan was to get right in and drive so we could sight see in DC on the way home. We meet Brad and he is just as nice in person as he was on the phone.

We tour the shop. I'm amazed at how clean and organized it is. Work stations all laid out,burn table, different work areas. Storm trailers everywhere in process.

We walk across the street to check out the truck for the first time. Now, I've purchased a bunch of cars and motorcycles and been excited but this was a different level. Years of driving not so great trucks and then playing a large role in building one was exciting. I laid eyes on it .

I was completely floored!! It was bigger, badder and the most shiny truck I've ever laid eyes on. We spent 45 minutes going over it and Brad explained the reasons why and how things were done that way. The welds were tight, the lines were straight. You could tell his employee's took pride in their work.

A quick dinner and an attempt to get some sleep took place. I was excited. The next morning we got there and the weather was 45* and clear. Set up some cameras and pulled the truck to look at in the daylight. It looked even better.

Took a few minutes to setup and get the loader out (Its been a few years for me) . The loader has 32' of reach and seems like more. Packed it up and got on the road.

Beautiful drive thru the mountains as the leaves were changing . The sound of the sport mufflers ringing in my ears. The truck is on the verge of being too loud with the windows down but it lets people know you are coming. The truck turns some heads everywhere we take it. We spend Halloween on the road and get some great pizza near our hotel .

My girlfriend and I stop by South of the border for breakfast the next day. Then make a surprise visit to my Aunt and uncle in Jacksonville. May or may not have blown the horn and flew a trump flag for fun. We get in late that night to Leesburg,FL.

I washed the truck the next morning and drove it to Work with a smile. Everything turned out great and the truck drove flawless. I ask my brother to park around the corner and cover his eyes for the reveal.

He is just as blown away as I am! He jumps up on the loader and extends it out to full reach with a chuckle. His first drive goes well and he drives it back to his shop.
A week later,The Truck is lettered and the inside of the bed painted with some heavy duty Tar to protect it. Every few months I contact Pete At Kustom for updates on the backorders. To be continued.
 

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The Black truck has been in operation for about a year. We did have a break down with a Reman injector but other then that its been good. The 70 yd bed makes a huge difference as well as working off the back. The extra reach of the m13 is a game changer.
The serco grapple is shorter then the Rotobec I've used before. I like the smaller size of the serco for storing it in the bed easier when loaded but its not as precise for final cleanup on nice grass compared to the Rotobec. Small complaint ,but I would still choose the serco again.

My brother and I decide to have Kustom add some details to the engine on the white truck. We chose to have the 6NZ painted white and the exhaust manifolds ceramic coated. Pete goes the extra mile and has the charge pipes painted also. We send out some green paint for him to use.
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Truck arrives from Portland on November 4th 2020.
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Sidenote, I get the number 36 alot in life. Both my cars have 36 in the vin number, 63 in the engine code. Pete sends me the Cat engine serial number. It ends in 36.

Time goes by and back orders take place. I fly out to Oregon with my GF and drive into Coos bay. I'm really excited at this point! Years of wanting to build something cool and its finally come together. Every spec is dialed in.
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We meet with Pete and go over the truck. Its the last new glider he will ever build.
I get the truck warmed up and take it up the coast for a test drive. It performs flawlessly! The Transmission shifts well and the power delivery is good. My first time driving an 18 speed. It does seem pretty quiet compared to the black truck. I'll dig into that later.
After leaving Kustom Truck we headed to Crater lake, then into CA to check out some Redwoods.
 

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I thought about driving the truck to crater lake, then across the country to Pennsylvania but I knew the importance of getting heat on the rings for engine break in. You don't want to idle a new engine alot or keep it at light loads. Alot of people bring the engine up to temperature quickly and pull a heavy load. Or put it on a dyno.
I contact Pittsburgh power to see if the truck will fit on their dyno and is able to be strapped down. They call me back a few days later and told me there was just over a foot to spare.
The Chassis is loaded on a flatbed trailer and hauled to Pittsburgh. Then strapped down and run on the dyno for two hours at different loads to break in the rings.
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White truck dyno-

With the Dyno complete I get the truck towed to a local dealership so they can give it a once over. Check the suspension systems, lights, etc.The truck ride height is increased one inch in the rear. for more clearance. Currently measures 43" at the tail of the truck measured from the ground to the top of the frame. Important to note, this truck has a heavy duty frame thats 3/4 -1 " taller then a normal double frame.

I also asked the dealer to compare the mufflers and shields from the black truck to the white one. They put me in touch with the Muffler manufacture. The mufflers look identical but the black truck has sport mufflers that flow 1000cfm more and are much louder. I also wanted the smaller shields so the body sits in the same location as the other truck. I missed this detail when I went over the build with Wayne.
New mufflers/shields were ordered and Brad would install them.
We wanted a nice sounding engine and if its too loud we can always change back to the stock mufflers.
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The truck is towed for the final time to Edgewood welding in Somerset , PA in early November 2021. Brad goes over the truck and we go over the small changes on this build.

Going to have Brad wire in a throttle switch on the loader.
A larger hydraulic cooler that has more then twice the cooling capacity.
1/4" AR450 with tie downs in different locations
Umbrella mount
Light bars
Custom switches inside the cab

I want to take a minute and go over the Hydraulic system. The palfinger operates at a higher pressure (3400-3500psi) then most loaders. A P350 gear pump ( rated to 3500psi) is standard on most of these loaders. I called Parker and they said that pump will stand up to 10% over spikes for a short periods of time. Nothing wrong with that pump but a P450 gear pump ( rated to 4500psi) has the same footprint and case so it could be seen as an upgrade.
There is also the Gear pump vs piston pump debate. From what I was able to gather the gear pump is longer lasting,less money and rebuildable. But the gear pump isn't as efficient as a piston pump and generates more heat.
I went with a Parker F2 70/70 pump. It requires a lower shaft speed to make 21GPM X2 compared to a gear pump. That pump is widely used overseas and the loaders are very fast/powerful. I wanted better performance. Having a lower shaft speed also means you don't have to lose as much HP rating on your PTO.

The F2 will also deal with 5000psi and 30 GPM per side if we put a larger loader on later. There is a Z fold line that is stout but its not continuous rotation.
These loaders require about 86hp on paper for max duty on both sides of a tandem pump. Paper and the real world are slightly different in some cases. These leads me into the PTO discussion.

Getting a PTO that is rated for higher HP is easier on an Automatic vs a manual transmission. Some builders even use a lighter duty PTO and it lives well. I went back and forth with Muncie and Chelsea over what their PTO's are rated for on a manual transmission. In the end I found that Muncie was rated higher and that loggers up north preferred it.

I went with an M 116% Ratio 880 . The math was
1025engine rpm * 116% =1189 shaft rpm. This is based on 100% efficiency. Most Piston pumps are rated 95-98%.
Gear pumps are rated 92% when new depending on who or what you find.

F2 70/70 needs 1136rpm to make 21GPM per side. The parker valves used on the M13 are able to handle 25-29GPM max depending on some details. I'm not worried about being slightly over for flow.

I also wanted a smooth transition from the pump to the hardlines under the body. You want to try and avoid sharp bends in any hydraulic system as they can impact flow and heat.
 
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I’m enjoying the thread/build.

Couple thoughts… I agree on 180* being a good “normal” max operating temp, 110* isn’t much over ambient and isn’t hot enough to get water out of the oil. Over ~180* conventional oil starts oxidizing at an exponential rate with the temp climb. My normal never exceed temp is 220*.

Hydraulic system efficiency is usually a reduction in pressure moreso than flow, but that cumulatively affects the input power required to the pump.


Looking forward to the next installments!
 
I bought this grapple truck a couple weeks ago, was surprised at its lack of weight. 2020 VHD R62, 22k/46k/~13k axles with a 500hp D13. Rotobec 910, 27’.

There are a few things that are dumb about it, one being only 68 gallons of fuel capacity. Another being the tag axle/tire selection (315/80R22.5). I’m a fan of high lift tags running 19.5” wheels for better clearance.

Putting 6 new tires on today. Clean it up, polish the wheels, and fresh paint on the box will go a long way.
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I bought this grapple truck a couple weeks ago, was surprised at its lack of weight. 2020 VHD R62, 22k/46k/~13k axles with a 500hp D13. Rotobec 910, 27’.

There are a few things that are dumb about it, one being only 68 gallons of fuel capacity. Another being the tag axle/tire selection (315/80R22.5). I’m a fan of high lift tags running 19.5” wheels for better clearance.

Putting 6 new tires on today. Clean it up, polish the wheels, and fresh paint on the box will go a long way.
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Congratulations
 
Thanks, I want and wanted to build the truck I wanted, but that deal came along while an opportunity to buy a chassis did not.

I like it substantially better than my previous grapple truck, a similarly built but older Western Star that weighed ~47klb empty.
 
I bought this grapple truck a couple weeks ago, was surprised at its lack of weight. 2020 VHD R62, 22k/46k/~13k axles with a 500hp D13. Rotobec 910, 27’.

There are a few things that are dumb about it, one being only 68 gallons of fuel capacity. Another being the tag axle/tire selection (315/80R22.5). I’m a fan of high lift tags running 19.5” wheels for better clearance.

Putting 6 new tires on today. Clean it up, polish the wheels, and fresh paint on the box will go a long way.
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Congratulations on the truck. Under 40K does seem pretty light. Great for carrying extra payload. That D13 engine looks like it runs well. Is it a double frame truck? 3/16 sides? 40K rear ends? I like saving weight but went on the heavier side since we will have the truck forever.


I’m enjoying the thread/build.

Couple thoughts… I agree on 180* being a good “normal” max operating temp, 110* isn’t much over ambient and isn’t hot enough to get water out of the oil. Over ~180* conventional oil starts oxidizing at an exponential rate with the temp climb. My normal never exceed temp is 220*.

Hydraulic system efficiency is usually a reduction in pressure moreso than flow, but that cumulatively affects the input power required to the pump.


Looking forward to the next installments!
Lumberjack, I thought about the water in the oil also. The stock palfinger fan comes on at 122* so my thoughts were if they are ok running it that cool I'll just get ahead of the heat. Going to change the hyd oil once a year.
We had a 2124 that I adjusted the pressure to 3650psi on the main boom and 3200psi on the secondary boom. It would lift well until it got over 120* and then would lose some power. I repeated that test on another 2124 so I wasn't going to take any chances on this truck.
 
It is a double frame. I haven't measured the sides thickness, yet. 22klb/46klb steer/drives. Only having 68 gallons of fuel saves nearly 1klb over my previous truck. I doubt this is a forever truck, but for the money I couldn't see passing it up.


Losing power with heat.... I wonder where it was going, internal pump leakage is my usual first suspect.
 
Added a few last minute details to the truck. Flew to Pennsylvania to pick it up. Everything turned out excellent!

Driving it back to Florida.
More details to come.

Getting a grapple saw . My brother will be one of the few to drive /operate the truck so it’s well cared for.
 

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Added a few last minute details to the truck. Flew to Pennsylvania to pick it up. Everything turned out excellent!

Driving it back to Florida.
More details to come.

Getting a grapple saw . My brother will be one of the few to drive /operate the truck so it’s well cared for.
Congratulations, looks great! Where in PA did you pick it up?
 

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