2 in 1 Wire Core Flip Line?

[Tony]

Hi Tony,

What's your thoughts on the use of the Michoacan as your hitch?
My current non-wire core lanyard I bought from Teufelburger runs a VT and I find it slips quite a lot or isn't correctly tensioning, thinking of upgrading to a thicker line so I'm able to try out some different hitch knots.

Thanks again!

The Michoacan has been a go-to for me for years. I like the prussic variations that form a half hitch or at least a turn at the bottom. Seems to give the know “seat” on the hitch climber. Also keeps you having to babysit them so much. Once loaded they stay dressed better I my mind.

I also train climbers in the Michoacan as it is the direct relative of the Blake’s hitch which I always start new climbers on for at least a bit.

The 10mm RIT Cord from Sterling is my favorite as it lays a bit flat which I think makes a hitch grab securely, but then also release easy.

As for prussic diameter, 1mm less than the host line is the general rule of thumb, but there are many shades of that particular gray.

Tony

 

[Mparko93]

It's just as fast to advance both at the same time, or carry it up and set it once you get up there.

Here is a thread on the tree squeeze if you are interested.

Buckingham Tree Squeeze

I am thinking about getting a few for a few guys to try, It seems like a good product for many applications. About $200 each, I want to get just a few and have certain guys try it. We have about 22 climbers so that would be expensive unless it is as useful as it seems. Just wondering if any of...

www.treebuzz.com

Thanks for the referral!
Been looking at them all afternoon and can definitely see the potential!!

My boss seems to think they're a gimmick and just a gadget yet isn't keen to climb palms himself?
He recently had a gaff out in a paperbark resulting in slicing his palm, 4 days in hospital, tendons reattached etc etc
So this has been on my mind quite a lot regarding what went wrong etc and we have diagnosed the issue.

But the idea of climbing a palm with only my flip-line and the same accident occurring just made me realise how absolutely stuffed I would be having to spike down with some form of injury.
Once I mentioned my concerns to him and my desire to purchase something like the tree squeeze his response was "just don't cut yourself when you're doing a palm"
My blood is still boiling!

 

[Mparko93]

The Michoacan has been a go-to for me for years. I like the prussic variations that form a half hitch or at least a turn at the bottom. Seems to give the know “seat” on the hitch climber. Also keeps you having to babysit them so much. Once loaded they stay dressed better I my mind.

I also train climbers in the Michoacan as it is the direct relative of the Blake’s hitch which I always start new climbers on for at least a bit.

The 10mm RIT Cord from Sterling is my favorite as it lays a bit flat which I think makes a Mitch grab securely, but then also release easy.

As for prussic diameter, 1mm less than the host line is the general rule of thumb, but there are many shades of that particular gray.

Tony

Tony,

As we say where I am from "you're a bloody legend!"
Thanks so much for the input and responses!!!
Same great things here for me to think about and start adding to my system!!!!

 

[Tony]

Thanks for the referral!
Been looking at them all afternoon and can definitely see the potential!!

My boss seems to think they're a gimmick and just a gadget yet isn't keen to climb palms himself?
He recently had a gaff out in a paperbark resulting in slicing his palm, 4 days in hospital, tendons reattached etc etc
So this has been on my mind quite a lot regarding what went wrong etc and we have diagnosed the issue.

But the idea of climbing a palm with only my flip-line and the same accident occurring just made me realise how absolutely stuffed I would be having to spike down with some form of injury.
Once I mentioned my concerns to him and my desire to purchase something like the tree squeeze his response was "just don't cut yourself when you're doing a palm"
My blood is still boiling!

While I have never climbed a palm with one, I have spent a prodigious amount of time using the tree squeeze and it’s prototype varients on power poles and similar for training and trade show events.

If I was doing your work I would buy one, use it daily and never regret the expenditure.

The reason I don't own one is when I need it there is generally one provided for me to use.

Tony

 

[Chaplain242]

Thanks for the referral!
Been looking at them all afternoon and can definitely see the potential!!

My boss seems to think they're a gimmick and just a gadget yet isn't keen to climb palms himself?
He recently had a gaff out in a paperbark resulting in slicing his palm, 4 days in hospital, tendons reattached etc etc
So this has been on my mind quite a lot regarding what went wrong etc and we have diagnosed the issue.

But the idea of climbing a palm with only my flip-line and the same accident occurring just made me realise how absolutely stuffed I would be having to spike down with some form of injury.
Once I mentioned my concerns to him and my desire to purchase something like the tree squeeze his response was "just don't cut yourself when you're doing a palm"
My blood is still boiling!

These are good, but with palms I find SRT basal tie methods better overall. Just throw a lifeline over the crown and climb up (with lanyard around trunk just in case). When up there there’s no messing around reconfiguring Tie in Points etc. as your prusik or ascender can go as high as the rope goes. Just need to be somewhat good with a throwball to use this technique.

Spikes are initially faster, so your boss will likely push you to spike up anyway, but if you get into problems (even angry bees on flower heads) you straight away have a way down if using a multiscender or rope wrench. Even if you have to connect an atc/fig8 rappelling device it is quick to do so.

Use a foot ascender and you can use a short piece of rope (2-3m long with a loop on one end) and can loop around a frond or two on other side of crown to step onto with foot ascender so can operate upright without disconnecting lifeline etc very quick to put in and take off again to put in another position - no migrating your main system to the other side of crown.

If a clean skinned palm has been spiked and you are clean enough to reuse the same old gaff holes it’s not too bad, but often gaffs force out trunk fibres which really need bashing in again to clean up the look.

With skirted palms there’s the risk of skirt collapse which is mitigated by a SRT lifeline. One could possibly use a tree squeeze but it would be messy moving it up unless you really closely pruned the fronds and frond bases to the trunk. I always use long gaffs on these to mitigate weighting possible loose skin. I have had them slip just a little using short spikes so end up having to use a rope to descend anyway

 

[Crimsonking]

These are good, but with palms I find SRT basal tie methods better overall. Just throw a lifeline over the crown and climb up (with lanyard around trunk just in case). When up there there’s no messing around reconfiguring Tie in Points etc. as your prusik or ascender can go as high as the rope goes. Just need to be somewhat good with a throwball to use this technique.

Spikes are initially faster, so your boss will likely push you to spike up anyway, but if you get into problems (even angry bees on flower heads) you straight away have a way down if using a multiscender or rope wrench. Even if you have to connect an atc/fig8 rappelling device it is quick to do so.

Use a foot ascender and you can use a short piece of rope (2-3m long with a loop on one end) and can loop around a frond or two on other side of crown to step onto with foot ascender so can operate upright without disconnecting lifeline etc very quick to put in and take off again to put in another position - no migrating your main system to the other side of crown.

If a clean skinned palm has been spiked and you are clean enough to reuse the same old gaff holes it’s not too bad, but often gaffs force out trunk fibres which really need bashing in again to clean up the look.

With skirted palms there’s the risk of skirt collapse which is mitigated by a SRT lifeline. One could possibly use a tree squeeze but it would be messy moving it up unless you really closely pruned the fronds and frond bases to the trunk. I always use long gaffs on these to mitigate weighting possible loose skin. I have had them slip just a little using short spikes so end up having to use a rope to descend anyway

I’ve never climbed a palm but now feel much better suited to do so with your walkthrough.

I’ve read enough to make me hesitant. Honestly if I never do I won’t feel like I’m missing out (that much anyway, what is it with our addiction to new challenge?!)

 

[Chaplain242]

I’ve never climbed a palm but now feel much better suited to do so with your walkthrough.

I’ve read enough to make me hesitant. Honestly if I never do I won’t feel like I’m missing out (that much anyway, what is it with our addiction to new challenge?!)

The missing out is the cockroaches, mice and rat droppings etc, and the dust and microfibres choking you to death when the sawdust from the chainsaw/silky isn’t blowing in your face. And if course the spines from those species that have a target on your back - my arms and feet are filled with them... and of course the odd occasion when the bees all over the flower heads are angry enough to pick a fight - what’s not to love?

 

[Chaplain242]

One additional tip, on Phoenix palms, cut the fronds in two places. First cut the frond off just outboard of where the spines finish and become leaflets. Second cut at the base wherever the sculpted trunk radius/bowl is. That way groundys can clean up the long fronds quickly without damage to themselves, and the spiky sections are short and easily managed.

Same for climbing, a long frond weight can swing the frond into you if you cut it wrong or it gets caught on a flower/fan etc and swings into you.

Also a long complete frond when dropped to the ground springs into a missile weapon that can be lethal - I have nearly worn one to the face, only thing that saved me was putting my hand in the way and having spikes penetrate 3-4 inches into my arm...

same goes when unloading from trailer if not chipping them. Throwing a complete frond if it strikes an object can make it fly sideways up to ten or so feet.

cut into sections injuries drop by large margins and means no surgical visits if you get a bad strike.

same if using polesaw. Some guys go to trouble of taping a crossbar to a polesaw so full frond doesn’t slide down polesaw and take out the operator. If cut just beyond the spikes you generally won’t need to do that stuff...

 

[Upstreamcast]

 

[Mparko93]

While I have never climbed a palm with one, I have spent a prodigious amount of time using the tree squeeze and it’s prototype varients on power poles and similar for training and trade show events.

If I was doing your work I would buy one, use it daily and never regret the expenditure.

The reason I don't own one is when I need it there is generally one provided for me to use.

Tony

Great to know Tony, thank you!
Found a great video that shows the potential of it and definitely has me interested!
I have a job coming up requiring me to climb about 6-7 palms and some of them are so skinny they feel so sketchy to climb and get a good solid spike and if I was to have the tree squeeze I could quite easily climb the largest one, set my line and just swing from palm to palm with the job done in about half the amount of time!

This video I think really showed me the potential for it's use and again the benefit of being able to descend quickly in the event of an emergency!

 

[Mparko93]

View attachment 75230

Hi there!

Is this a rope grab you recommend?
Seems like it can operate in both directions?
Fitting for a flipline?

 

[southsoundtree]

Thanks for the referral!
Been looking at them all afternoon and can definitely see the potential!!

My boss seems to think they're a gimmick and just a gadget yet isn't keen to climb palms himself?
He recently had a gaff out in a paperbark resulting in slicing his palm, 4 days in hospital, tendons reattached etc etc
So this has been on my mind quite a lot regarding what went wrong etc and we have diagnosed the issue.

But the idea of climbing a palm with only my flip-line and the same accident occurring just made me realise how absolutely stuffed I would be having to spike down with some form of injury.
Once I mentioned my concerns to him and my desire to purchase something like the tree squeeze his response was "just don't cut yourself when you're doing a palm"
My blood is still boiling!

When are you supposed to cut yourself?

F that boss.

 

[Tony]

Great to know Tony, thank you!
Found a great video that shows the potential of it and definitely has me interested!
I have a job coming up requiring me to climb about 6-7 palms and some of them are so skinny they feel so sketchy to climb and get a good solid spike and if I was to have the tree squeeze I could quite easily climb the largest one, set my line and just swing from palm to palm with the job done in about half the amount of time!

This video I think really showed me the potential for it's use and again the benefit of being able to descend quickly in the event of an emergency!

All good. I would seriously listen to Caplain243’s advice. He obviously has WAY more experince than me working palms. I have been exposed to the setup described, but have never used it in a palm.

Keep asking questions. Keep an open mind. You are responsible for your learning and your safety. Don't give that responsibility up to another.

Tony

 

[Mparko93]

When are you supposed to cut yourself?

F that boss.

Yep. Definitely leaning in that direction.....
Just have to find a way out and wording that absolves me of any guilt

 

[Mparko93]

I once thought DEDA was a great idea too. Had Nick splice up a nice 16 strand 25 foot lanyard with steel snaps on each end and I put it on the saddle with a Gibbs rope grab on each hip.

Way too much stuff. Too much weight, too many loops of rope hanging off me, too much snagging those loops and time wasted managing all the slack. Not enough use of the other end. Climbing line with a hitch always served as 2nd lanyard on spur and flip line ascent, and once climbing line was set overhead, it’s very rare that I need a 2nd lanyard.

If you wanna try a DEDA, go for it, but maybe don’t drop the money and effort on splices. Just go with scaffold knots until you know you want to keep using it.

Hi Jonny!

Thank you for the reply
Would you happen to still have this lanyard? Or maybe some photos of it in use?
And was it the Gibbs Klimair you were using on each hip?

Well I was planning to do this on a wire core lanyard with my tree motion harness so both rope grabs / attachments would be directly above each other.

This is mainly to use for palms and in the event I start doing some big conifers etc ....
I'll take a photo of my rough idea and send them through

Thank you again!

 

[Jonny]

Hi, no I had it built in 06, and after a few months, I cut it in half (intentionally). If I ever get my pics off an old broken laptop, I’ll share the pics, but it was the usual one directional Gibbs grab, not Klimairs. Two steel Gibbs, two steel snaps, on a saddle with steel Ds, and 25’ plus the splices of 1/2” XTC, added up to being heavy and with awkward loops of rope hanging all over me. The weight can get cut easily these days, but I learned DEDA isn’t really for me. Very cool idea, and I’ll never talk shit if someone else loves it, but not for me. I’ve never been very concerned about weight of hardware and ropes and saws, but this stuff added up and the slack drove me bugshit. I almost always just have the one lanyard in use, but I’m still always tied in twice if I’m cutting. Climbing line with a hitch cord or SRT device is useful as a lanyard before I reach my overhead tie in, and once I’m tied in overhead, I rarely want a 2nd lanyard. If I do, there’s more goodies in my bag.

 

[Mparko93]

Hi, no I had it built in 06, and after a few months, I cut it in half (intentionally). If I ever get my pics off an old broken laptop, I’ll share the pics, but it was the usual one directional Gibbs grab, not Klimairs. Two steel Gibbs, two steel snaps, on a saddle with steel Ds, and 25’ plus the splices of 1/2” XTC, added up to being heavy and with awkward loops of rope hanging all over me. The weight can get cut easily these days, but I learned DEDA isn’t really for me. Very cool idea, and I’ll never talk shit if someone else loves it, but not for me. I’ve never been very concerned about weight of hardware and ropes and saws, but this stuff added up and the slack drove me bugshit. I almost always just have the one lanyard in use, but I’m still always tied in twice if I’m cutting. Climbing line with a hitch cord or SRT device is useful as a lanyard before I reach my overhead tie in, and once I’m tied in overhead, I rarely want a 2nd lanyard. If I do, there’s more goodies in my bag.

Hi Jonny!

Thanks for the update and all the info
Definitely some things for me to think about....
I'm tossing up whether I go ahead and make the DEDA I'm thinking of or invest in a tree squeeze and use that as my main attachment to the bottom D's on my harness and have a wire running to hip saddles for when I get up top and ready to cut / able to descend quickly in the event of an emergency.
Or to make the DEDA and use it for smaller palms where the descent in an emergency is still quick spiking down and I'm still able to have two points of attachment when I'm cutting.

I've attached an image to this reply of what my ideal setup / idea is!
Ideally I want to have the Hip prussic as the lower attachment but with the Gibbs Klimair and about a 5m long flipline.

 

[Upstreamcast]

Hi there!

Is this a rope grab you recommend?
Seems like it can operate in both directions?
Fitting for a flipline?

Check out this video that explains the Gibbs Klimair. I use it on a 1/2" steel core lanyard...no problems.

 

[Mparko93]

Check out this video that explains the Gibbs Klimair. I use it on a 1/2" steel core lanyard...no problems.

Hi there!

Yes, I have seen this video
Did some research on the product once I saw your last post.....
Where did you purchase yours from?
Trying to find a good supplier that isn't to expensive to ship over here to Australia..

 

[Upstreamcast]

Hi there!

Yes, I have seen this video
Did some research on the product once I saw your last post.....
Where did you purchase yours from?
Trying to find a good supplier that isn't to expensive to ship over here to Australia..

I think I purchased from:
ROCK-N-RESCUE
J. E. Weinel, Inc.
300 Delwood Road,
Butler, Pennsylvania, 16001