Money & Time

Neill said:
Great points,
So we work for money because that’s the system we know and are born into/ alternatives to that system are…in a word- inconvenient.

And

If we didn’t have this system we would be actively busy doing the things required for survival

But does that mean we have to work until we die?!

It also reads another way. If we stop working, then we will die. Which I think is true sometimes. Folks retire and then without purpose seem to lose the “life force”to carry on. Coincidence ?

I’m actually with you guys on that sentiment but it’s hard to read someone else saying it and not feel the kneejerk reaction, “that’s sick. Why are we programmed to work?”
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I don’t necessarily think we absolutely need to work like a 20 year old until we die, but I do think we need to do something physically active to remain healthy.

When I was a kid, I remember thinking the idea was to work to retirement and then do nothing, which was likely just trickle down from what older people were saying. Maybe similar to how I often heard guys talking about the miseries their wives laid upon them.

Looking back, many of those instances were probably stated in sarcasm that I didn’t pick up on until young adult-hood. But I heard people talking like that so much I had to ask “why are these guys so miserable?” Inside my head of course.

I’d rather be stoked on doing something I enjoy enough that I never have to say “I can’t wait until I retire”. If we somehow are wired that way then I see no point in trying to fight it.
 
Bart_ said:
A lesson in burning the candle hard, how much candle there is and family was one of those rough seas fishing deckhand shows where someone was lost at sea and another "indestructable" work hard hero stroked out or heart attack I can't remember which. Put a damper on the excitement of the show. Brought in a little emphasis on family time.

Human frailty is a real thing.
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We all definitely walk a thin line without even knowing it. Maybe the work/life balance is less about quantities and more about quality.
- work 8, family 8, sleep 8 = balanced 24 could be a good thing, but…
- work LOVE, family LOVE, sleep SOUND is what we should aim for.
 
Neill said:
Why are we programmed to work?”
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Ah, a philosophical question! And the oldest answer we have is that Adam was created and placed in a garden for him to work. Day one - work. Purpose - subdue the earth. Such a huge task that it requires community and civilization to accomplish. It requires free time, not just survival. Work became a bad word when the earth was cursed because Adam disobeyed God. Now we are in that weird space where we LOVE to work - there's nothing better than a group of guys tackling a challenging project all in sync - but we are mugged by the curse - bolts that break, honeylocust thorns, and groundsmen with attitude. Work is not only good, it is what we are. One reason climbing is the business I started to do during my "retirement."
 
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Serf Life said:
The Bible is a mashup of countless religions, could be quoting the Sumerians! 300s BC Aristotle: "All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind" which seems a bit dramatic but spoken by an elite.
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The Bible has a fairly unique view that work is good. Many (most?) other philosophical beliefs and religions (especially Greek, where eutopia is free of labor, so Aristotle's quote is right in line with his culture) see work itself as a curse. The Bible teaches work itself is good, but it has been frustrated by the fall.
 
Dan Thornton said:
Ah, a philosophical question! And the oldest answer we have is that Adam was created and placed in a garden for him to work. Day one - work. Purpose - subdue the earth. Such a huge task that it requires community and civilization to accomplish. It requires free time, not just survival. Work became a bad word when the earth was cursed because Adam disobeyed God. Now we are in that weird space where we LOVE to work - there's nothing better than a group of guys tackling a challenging project all in sync - but we are mugged by the curse - bolts that break, honeylocust thorns, and groundsmen with attitude. Work is not only good, it is what we are. One reason climbing is the business I started to do during my "retirement."
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My interpretation of Eden is no one was really working, just lounging around naked eating fruit, kind of a metaphor for some hunter gatherer societies. The real work started when we figured out farming and started storing grain.
 
ATH said:
The Bible has a fairly unique view that work is good. Many (most?) other philosophical beliefs and religions (especially Greek, where eutopia is free of labor, so Aristotle's quote is right in line with his culture) see work itself as a curse. The Bible teaches work itself is good, but it has been frustrated by the fall.
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clever bastards!
 
ATH said:
The Bible has a fairly unique view that work is good. Many (most?) other philosophical beliefs and religions (especially Greek, where eutopia is free of labor, so Aristotle's quote is right in line with his culture) see work itself as a curse. The Bible teaches work itself is good, but it has been frustrated by the fall.
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My post probably came off as more of a Bible dig than the intended historical jest. I was pointing to the "oldest answer we have" coming from the Bible comment, when there are texts promoting and cursing work well before.

Personally I get satisfaction from physical work and productivity, but occasionally "curse the life I'm living and curse my poverty."
 
levi r said:
My interpretation of Eden is no one was really working, just lounging around naked eating fruit, kind of a metaphor for some hunter gatherer societies. The real work started when we figured out farming and started storing grain.
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I'd suggest that is a westernized understanding probably heavily influenced by Greek traditions.

Genesis 2:15:
"The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."

Work was different...no weeds, thorns, not by the sweat of our brow, etc.

Tim Keller wrote a good book about work called Every Good Endeavor that helped me understand better. I now realize it is something good, but I'm not naive to the fact that work is frustrated. I can choose to see work as good, and I can choose to understand it is much more than money. How I go about my job is different because of what I've learned.

I recognize I am fortunate...if I were born at a place and time where my only option was to crush rocks for an overlord, it would be more difficult to celebrate work as such.
 
Matias said:
An equally useful question to ponder is, "Why are so many people so inclined to take so much more for themselves, even when it makes life worse for others?" That is the sickness that I don't understand.
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This leans to the indie subcontractor model I do with a couple handfuls of arbs around here. We’re all coexisting and collaborating rather than “competing”.
 
levi r said:
TYYanJ.gif
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It’s a good find. Going in circles no less. Who fills in the walking path so they don’t form a trench too deep?
 
levi r said:
humanprogress.org

Working Less for More

Based on their observations of extant hunter-gatherer societies, scholars estimate that our foraging ancestors worked anywhere between 2.8 hours and 7.6 hours per day. Once they secured their food for the day, they stopped. The foragers’ workload was comparatively low, but so was their standard...
humanprogress.org humanprogress.org

Original affluent society - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Chop wood carry water? Everyone's got to eat, but do we need to be yoked to the wheel in such a way as we are? Methinks not!
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I still have to think it’s a blessing to be able to earn money doing what we do. If AI takes over, our “industry” seems like the last one it could ever impact, and we’re inherently outdoors. Not a terrible wheel to be yolked to.
 
This talk has me wondering: how old are you?...and has your perception on these matters changed as you get close to "retirement" age?

49 myself. While I'd love to have more "free time" I imagine if I quit playing with trees I'd be pretty bored. Maybe find more time in the shop.
 
ATH said:
This talk has me wondering: how old are you?...and has your perception on these matters changed as you get close to "retirement" age?

49 myself. While I'd love to have more "free time" I imagine if I quit playing with trees I'd be pretty bored. Maybe find more time in the shop.
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I have no idea how old I am, but definitely was born in 1974! Haha!

I think the idea of retirement faded out in direct proportion to understanding what it meant and how to get there. Retirement age would likely be when nature plays a hand I can’t counter. Don’t want to wish anything upon myself or anyone else, but hey…

I very much look up to guys like Graeme McMahon, Gerry Beranek, and anyone like him. One year at TCIA Expo I met the gent that photographed Ger taking out that famous monster Redwood. Rick? Unfortunately I can’t recall his name, but I’ll never forget shaking his hand. It’s awesome when these guys keep coming around.
 
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