critical criticism

[southsoundtree]

When I started out it was pretty common to lay your climbing line in two little notches in the top of the spar.
Rappel on a double rope while keeping your flip line around the stem
Either that or just spur down.

When I started, the previous owner of my chip truck told me not to use notch, as their were too many accidents.

He also said people would cut a 'false crotch' in the backside of the spar (an enlarged kerf) on an angle, between the cut of the next spar chunk such that it would be rigging below the TIP (maybe just a flipline) and above the climber's spurs.

An issue of the rigging rope hopping out would knock the climber's gaffs out.

 

[rico]

I see a lot of needless tip tying on YT videos...

The most famous of which almost killed Cory (human).. 6" from death... he was Likely trying to emulate the tip tying he'd seen done by August, much of which is also needless IMnotsohumbleO

It has it's place if you need clearance or are taking big wood, but much of it is just wasting time and needlessly dangrous. WHen I cut and rig I like to see the piece go down and awa

Often times a successful tie tie setup is contigent on the cutter using a cut that will ensure as little downward motion of the tip as possible. Using the wrong cut in a tip tie scenario can create a potentially dangerous scene very quickly.

 

[rico]

When I started out it was pretty common to lay your climbing line in two little notches in the top of the spar.
Rappel on a double rope while keeping your flip line around the stem
Either that or just spur down.

Did this for a couple decades and I am still alive. Hell, I know a few unsung monsters who still employ this technique On the daily. The key here is ALWAYS leaving your flipline around your spar. Otherwise you are taking you life in your hands.

 

[evo]

In a broad generalization it depends for me. It has most to do with the species and form of the tree.
Having a doubled rope around the spar is added insurance from burning a pole. The teardrop shape of mechanics makes it MORE likely to eventually hangup and stop the slide. Much more than a flip line only.
For little things I’ll take a full wrap with the climbing line.

Sure this breaks the rule of being able to descend and for that reason alone the above should be frowned upon.

One can choke a double line as if it were single. Pull a bight from under the hitch and snap that into the choking carabiner or tail of the choked running bowline. Essentially turning it into a 3:1 and no wrench or single line multicender is needed.

As a general rule the bigger the wood and the rougher the bark the less likely it is to burn a pole. Pines with exfoliating bark, euc, madrone and some maples are different animals. Spiking up with anything that chokes is best or a high TIP.

Now that little fir in the video, dude messed up on multiple fronts. Took a top too big, too much forward movement on the spar, hinge held on way too long. Spar too narrow, and should have a more secure method to choke.

A long while back at the log show I was helping out at, this kid fresh out of lineman school wanted to climb.
totally a odd setup, all new and shiny stuff. Super thick waist belt only, some sort of friction saver as a flip line and a 3 strand type connection.
The friction saver was a strap nearly 6” wide with spiked studs that connected to the wood. And just two same sized d rings like the old style saddles.
He had an attitude when I offered my gear to him, but could tell he was uneasy. Took him forever to get setup and walk to the pole which was MUCH too large for his strap saver thing. He fiddled with it for 15 minutes then just packed up and left.

 

[Daniel]

Often times a successful tie tie setup is contigent on the cutter using a cut that will ensure as little downward motion of the tip as possible. Using the wrong cut in a tip tie scenario can create a potentially dangerous scene very quickly.

even tip tying using the GRCS to lift pieces off when there is 40' of open air below the cut. Most of the tip tying I see is just needless. I have a couple long-form videos from last week that show tip-tying when it is needed. The danger I see is mostly from the rigging set up, not the cutting technique. When those logs start helicoptering around behind the rigging trunk and come slamming back at the climber, that's not about the cut... that's inevitable once the piece lets go.

And for what? If you know how to rig and use a good dynamic line, those pieces can load the rigging line smoothly as they start falling and end up below the clmber after they let go..

please elaborate on the "wrong" cut for tip-tying. I AM curious. I was tip tying a bunch of 30+' oak limbs and rip/peel cut them all. Kept the tree between me and the swinging limbs as much a possible so the POV camera work is a little disappointing. 4 cuts from same video cued up to the actual cuts:

 

[rico]

even tip tying using the GRCS to lift pieces off when there is 40' of open air below the cut. Most of the tip tying I see is just needless. I have a couple long-form videos from last week that show tip-tying when it is needed. The danger I see is mostly from the rigging set up, not the cutting technique. When those logs start helicoptering around behind the rigging trunk and come slamming back at the climber, that's not about the cut... that's inevitable once the piece lets go.

And for what? If you know how to rig and use a good dynamic line, those pieces can load the rigging line smoothly as they start falling and end up below the clmber after they let go..

please elaborate on the "wrong" cut for tip-tying. I AM curious. I was tip tying a bunch of 30+' oak limbs and rip/peel cut them all. Kept the tree between me and the swinging limbs as much a possible so the POV camera work is a little disappointing. 4 cuts from same video cued up to the actual cuts:

Wrong Cut? That really depends on the scenario Daniel. Are we trying to take something vertical/near vertical and make it fall straight down? Are we trying to take something growing horizontally and make it swing left, right, or fall up? There are many different scenarios where a tip tie can be helpful and many will call for a specific cut for the best execution.

I do find it odd that you were tip tying and using a rip cut . If we look at the limb at the 31:45 mark you can see that when this fairly upright limbs does finally disengage from the tree the tip is actually below the butt. So yea, you picked the "wrong cut" for the scenario which essentially defeated the purpose of the tip tie in my book. This was the perfect scenario for a nicely pretension line and a well executed slice cut. Smooth like fresh buttahole!

 

[Stumpsprouts]

It has it's place if you need clearance or are taking big wood, but much of it is just wasting time and needlessly dangrous. WHen I cut and rig I like to see the piece go down and away!

It can be quicker in some scenarios. Or slower in others.

It can be safer in some scenarios, or more dangerous.

The helicopter effect is compounded by folks notching the piece away from the block, like they’re used to with negative rigging, this brings the COG of the piece further from the block and by the time the hinge finally breaks the sucker is insanely far from the rigging point leading to the inevitable pendulum swing back to the climber. That same piece with the same rig point can go well, provided the climber has the piece tensioned into the block, and notches the piece towards the block, and has positioned their body intelligently.

Honestly I don’t like that rig myself as it leaves a lot of work to the ground crew. I tip tie when the rigging point is ideally positioned to drift the piece away from me.

 

[Daniel]

If we look at the limb at the 31:45 mark you can see that when this fairly upright limbs does finally disengage from the tree the tip is actually below the butt. So yea, you picked the "wrong cut" for the scenario which essentially defeated the purpose of the tip tie in my book.

Yes, I appreciate you pointing that out. I was a little surprised to see the limb act as it did in the moment, but was pleased (at the time) with the outcome which put the limb well below me at release and swinging far enough to easily clear the maple. However, in taking a closer look per your criticism, it's clear that the guy running the ropes needs a talking to. This was not my job or my crew. I haven't worked much with these guys, but enough to know they lack a lot of technical knowledge (which they make up for in hard work). For example, the guy running the ropes is also the owner of the company. It's his chipper, chip truck and loader. He remineded me last Friday that he doesn't know how to tie a running bowline.

IN taking a close look at the video (which is the theme of this thread), it's clear that the groundie let the piece start running before the cut was finished. This caused the but to push back into the tree when the cut released, and is what hung the piece up. If he had held the rope until the cut was finished, the but would have dropped and the tips raised, and the piece would have swung away. Ultimately, it's the saw operators responsibility to communicate with the groundie to run or hold etc. So this one was on me. But not because of the cut.. because of the communication.

You can see the entire set up of a later limb in this video, at 36 minutes, that I made sure he knew to hold the piece and let it swing before running the rope.

 

[Matias]

I have used the tip tie mostly to rig down big cuts in tight spaces. I think I always lift the tip, though there may have been a time or two I was instructed to do some atypical cuts. With some MA to lift the tip and sever the piece and then lower it, it is the smoothest, most static rig possible. It may not be fast, but when you wanna push limits with weight, I feel like it is worth the little bit of extra time to set it up to gain time not taking smaller pieces. I am also fairly green, so you might look at some of those cuts and tell me I could have done it this way or that, but at the end of the day, I got the job done safely, and within the alotted time, so whatever.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

How do you folks come down the stem for the fell if you aren’t choked in?

I either cut a V just inside a branch stub and use it to drt down or just spike and flip down. Either way I’ll keep the flip round the tree just in case.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

Interesting, Mick. I always choke my climbing line on a spar removal. So simple with SRT no reason not to. I don't, however, do it for fear of sliding down the trunk in case of gaff-out, that is easily stopped with proper technique. I do it to have instant access to the ground if the need should arise.

Yes, I can see why that makes sense.

 

[Steve Connally]

I prefer the choke ad generally work all spars SRS. At one point when I was doing a lot of crane work on similar trees I put a stitch of whipping twine at 16' so I know where to tie the cinch every time for millable logs (all things relative. Allowed me to quickly rap down to the end go my tail, retrieve, reset and go. Worked out pretty well and Impersonally find the cinch and SRS on the spar to be safer and more efficient than other methods. I've only had a circle of death close call once in my career and at that point I had no idea what I was doing. That and a couple other avoidable events brought me here looking for education.

 

[rico]

Yes, I appreciate you pointing that out. I was a little surprised to see the limb act as it did in the moment, but was pleased (at the time) with the outcome which put the limb well below me at release and swinging far enough to easily clear the maple. However, in taking a closer look per your criticism, it's clear that the guy running the ropes needs a talking to. This was not my job or my crew. I haven't worked much with these guys, but enough to know they lack a lot of technical knowledge (which they make up for in hard work). For example, the guy running the ropes is also the owner of the company. It's his chipper, chip truck and loader. He remineded me last Friday that he doesn't know how to tie a running bowline.

IN taking a close look at the video (which is the theme of this thread), it's clear that the groundie let the piece start running before the cut was finished. This caused the but to push back into the tree when the cut released, and is what hung the piece up. If he had held the rope until the cut was finished, the but would have dropped and the tips raised, and the piece would have swung away. Ultimately, it's the saw operators responsibility to communicate with the groundie to run or hold etc. So this one was on me. But not because of the cut.. because of the communication.

You can see the entire set up of a later limb in this video, at 36 minutes, that I made sure he knew to hold the piece and let it swing before running the rope.

How is a rip/tear cut gonna function if your tip doesn’t move? Let’s say your groundie had pretensioned the line and held it tight as he should have. Welcome to pinch city. So yea, wrong cut for the situation.

 

[Daniel]

How is a rip/tear cut gonna function if your tip doesn’t move? Let’s say your groundie had pretensioned the line and held it tight as he should have. Welcome to pinch city. So yea, wrong cut for the situation.

hardly .. your perpetual lame criticisms are pitiful... THE TIP IS ALWAYS GOING TO MOVE when the rigging point is not directly overhead. Tips going to swing.. that's the entire purpose of the rigging in the first place. To swing the piece away from the understory tree. You have to know better... You can't be that stupid no matter how often you act it.

 

[chiselbit]

That does it! Death match!
Everybody start chipping in for plane tickets. It would be best to fly Daniel to Rico’s for the match that way I can watch it.

 

[Stumpsprouts]

IN taking a close look at the video (which is the theme of this thread), it's clear that the groundie let the piece start running before the cut was finished. This caused the but to push back into the tree when the cut released, and is what hung the piece up. If he had held the rope until the cut was finished, the but would have dropped and the tips raised, and the piece would have swung away.

As I am currently in bed recovering from hand surgery this morning, I’m enjoying the theme of this thread, which is criticizing other peoples tree work on the computer. So I’ll continue to indulge this, as it is a lot more entertaining than watching one of my favorite Jackie Chan movies for the eighth time.

The rigs that you have pointed out in your videos are very similar to something I would’ve set up, but I would have cut through on the bottom at a slight angle and then come up from the top. Some people would call this a slice cut or a salami cut. In both cases on these rigs, the piece hung onto the tree a lot longer than it needed to in particular because of the very last sapwood tissues on the bottom side of the branches. When I make a bottom cut first, the piece just slides right off and there’s very minimal travel before the piece engages with the block.

On the second rig, since it had so much distance to travel to the block, I would be tempted to have notched it in the direction of the block and let the tips swing to be more less under the block before the hinge broke. But it went pretty smoothly as it was. I’m assuming that sun hat the groundie had on was ANSI rated..

 

[rico]

hardly .. your perpetual lame criticisms are pitiful... THE TIP IS ALWAYS GOING TO MOVE when the rigging point is not directly overhead. Tips going to swing.. that's the entire purpose of the rigging in the first place. To swing the piece away from the understory tree. You have to know better... You can't be that stupid no matter how often you act it.

You are having a hard time grasping the obvious Daniel and the limb at the 31:45 mark is living proof that you dont seem to know what you are talking about.

If properly done you would have pretension the line pulling the tip towards your rigging point and you would of used a well executed slice cut which would have caused the limb to quickly slide off the cut resulting in the butt heading towards the ground while the tip stayed high/stayed put. All this resulting in the limb in a vertical position with the tip up and the butt down, as it should be.

Instead your method resulted in the limbs tip moving a long distance downwards the ground and getting below the butt before the limb disengaged from the trunk. Once the butt did disengage it was pushed into the tree and got hung up because your less than stellar rigging and cutting allowed this limb to flatten out. We can all watch (32:14 mark) as the tip is almost on the ground while you butt is still hung up. Sorry, but that is not a well executed tip tie in my world.

 

[chiselbit]

You are having a hard time grasping the obvious Daniel and the limb at the 31:45 mark is living proof that you dont seem to know what you are talking about.

If properly done you would have pretension the line pulling the tip towards your rigging point and you would of used a well executed slice cut which would have caused the limb to quickly slid off the cut resulting in the butt heading towards the ground while the tip stayed high/stayed put. Limb in a vertical position with the tip up and the butt down, as it should be.

Instead your method resulted in the limbs tip moving a long distance downwards the ground and getting below the butt before the limb disengaged from the trunk. Once the butt did disengage it was pushed into the tree and got hung up because your less than stellar rigging and cutting allowed this limb to flatten out. We can all watch (32:14 mark) as the tip is almost on the ground while you butt is still hung up. Sorry, but that is not a well executed tip tie in my world.

Save it for the ring bub. Talkin is done. We’re in death match mode now.

 

[chiselbit]

I believe critical criticism is the name of this thread? Seem only fitting that we should break down the footage of some less than stellar tip tie rigging and cutting.

True. And your responses were fitting. But alas Daniels combative responses leave no other alternative,, so can we have the death match at your place? Or should we look into renting

 

[rico]

Or we could simply make this a learning moment and use Daniels vid as an example of how NOT to execute a tip tie?