22 year old died in Florida yesterday.

[ClimberClyde]

Things we learned today-

This is dangerous work, even for trained professionals, so please do not send an unqualified/untrained person aloft to do this work.

Don’t lose tops over backwards.

Don‘t leave fucking stubs, no matter how good of an idea you think it is.

Rescuing an inverted dead body with a heavy top hanging on their neck is not an easy task.

Did I miss anything?

Immediate supervision by experienced professionals is necessary for new climbers - active mentorship.

Aerial rescue is something that should be regularly practiced, with another crew member competent and confident enough to be able to successfully perform the rescue.

A second set of climbing gear should be really available for such an emergency.

A cinched climb line should be installed for emergency egress - or even emergency access from a rescuer.

Have a secondary climb line installed. (Especially for newer climbers?)

Never make cuts with only a flip line.

Install a rope when taking tops as a redundancy to avoid uncontrolled felling.

Don't take tops with winds working against you.

Lots of things to learn from this video. Although had I seen a full video including the top going the wrong way, where we see moments leading up to the incident, I would have posted that. That wasn't something I found though (not on Facebook) so I only saw the version I posted. Still something to learn IMHO. I understand where Steve is coming from - the way it's being shared on FB/wherever else for family/friends to see is rather gross. I don't feel that way about it here in this context, but that's my opinion. I respect where Steve is coming from.

The more regulations thing get bandied about a lot.
I’m definitely against it.
Where do you draw the line?
You can change the brakes on your own car which has the potential to kill multiple people if you get it wrong, but not cut a branch off a tree?
As for being taken seriously and not been seen as glorified landscapers, so what? What do I care? I get paid well for my work, that’s enough for me, if you crave respect for your work then become a nurse or policeman.

I never said I craved respect, I don't know where you got that. In the states police don't get respect lol.

I think a good place to start would be having ANSI Z133 standards go into effect as OSHA standards for tree work. The fact they are un-enforceable suggestions is a joke that I wish people took seriously. I have zero issue with the idea of being fined at OSHAs rate for not following those rules. They keep us safe and ensure new guys are kept safe as well. OSHA has nothing specific to tree work - they refer to the "recommended" ANSI guidelines. They shouldn't be recommended, they should be law (OSHA standards).

 

[rico]

Immediate supervision by experienced professionals is necessary for new climbers - active mentorship.

Aerial rescue is something that should be regularly practiced, with another crew member competent and confident enough to be able to successfully perform the rescue.

A second set of climbing gear should be really available for such an emergency.

A cinched climb line should be installed for emergency egress - or even emergency access from a rescuer.

Have a secondary climb line installed. (Especially for newer climbers?)

Never make cuts with only a flip line.

Install a rope when taking tops as a redundancy to avoid uncontrolled felling.

Don't take tops with winds working against you.

Lots of things to learn from this video. Although had I seen a full video including the top going the wrong way, where we see moments leading up to the incident, I would have posted that. That wasn't something I found though (not on Facebook) so I only saw the version I posted. Still something to learn IMHO. I understand where Steve is coming from - the way it's being shared on FB/wherever else for family/friends to see is rather gross. I don't feel that way about it here in this context, but that's my opinion. I respect where Steve is coming from.

I never said I craved respect, I don't know where you got that. In the states police don't get respect lol.

I think a good place to start would be having ANSI Z133 standards go into effect as OSHA standards for tree work. The fact they are un-enforceable suggestions is a joke that I wish people took seriously. I have zero issue with the idea of being fined at OSHAs rate for not following those rules. They keep us safe and ensure new guys are kept safe as well. OSHA has nothing specific to tree work - they refer to the "recommended" ANSI guidelines. They shouldn't be recommended, they should be law (OSHA standards).

Most here are professional, so we already know all this. And we certainly don’t need to watch a young man’s life drain from his body to reiterate any of those points.

 

[ClimberClyde]

Most here are professional, so we already know all this. And we certainly don’t need to watch a young man’s life drain from his body to reiterate any of those points.

What's the point of Awakenings since
were all professionals and know everything? I didn't realize everyone here was all knowing tree gods. Heaven forbid someone who's not as "elite" as you learns something. In your post you didn't mention half those things specifically, so I'm not sure if you do.

Again, since you didn't read my entire comment I'll repeat, just for you. IF I had seen the full video I would have posted that. The FULL video is more educational than the one I posted. Is that clear enough for you?

 

[Bucknut]

Unpopular opinion probably, but I see value purely in the shock of witnessing it. I won’t forget this video, but I’ve already forgotten dozens of “near miss” videos. This is the kind of thing you can show a young kid and make a lasting impression. They never think it’ll happen to them and this vid could shake that complacency.

I do agree that sharing this type of vid just for the hell of it is in poor taste. But this forum is one of the very few places online where it has great potential value. Even if we can’t learn anything new from it we can still use it to scare some new guys into climbing safely and deliberately.

 

[Matias]

I had been operating under the assumption that the Z was effectively the law under which OSHA can fine you. I know lots of guys who've been fined for their groundies not having chaps or hard hats. Is that the extent of their bite? That is fucking infuriating. I know that locally, I would have a waaaay easier time finding good gigs if those were the rules and not suggestions. It's all making more sense now.

 

[ClimberClyde]

I had been operating under the assumption that the Z was effectively the law under which OSHA can fine you. I know lots of guys who've been fined for their groundies not having chaps or hard hats. Is that the extent of their bite? That is fucking infuriating. I know that locally, I would have a waaaay easier time finding good gigs if those were the rules and not suggestions. It's all making more sense now.

Yes, the hard hats is under different construction regulations rather than its own tree care standards. For tree care all our regulations are adopted from other industries. Do have zero (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong) industry specific standards.

https://www.osha.gov/tree-care/standards

Part of the reason a video like this will happen again, and again, and again. Sure the LLC/business will get fined into oblivion, but that's because someone died. What about the dozen or so safety violations that led up to this point? Those were suggested guidelines, so ultimately they don't matter according to the law and every jabroni tree operation out there. It's extremely frustrating... Especially for those of us that actively try to adhere to ANSI standards. We're doing the "optional" steps.

***EDIT: To add, ANSI is a private non-profit company that makes guidelines with zero authority. As it's not in OSHA writing, they can't/won't enforce it until it's written up as OSHA standard. From what I gathered it takes an incredibly long time for that to happen, but come on, this industry has been around for over 100 years, with injuries and fatalities happening that entire time...***

 

[rico]

What's the point of Awakenings since
were all professionals and know everything? I didn't realize everyone here was all knowing tree gods. Heaven forbid someone who's not as "elite" as you learns something. In your post you didn't mention half those things specifically, so I'm not sure if you do.

Again, since you didn't read my entire comment I'll repeat, just for you. IF I had seen the full video I would have posted that. The FULL video is more educational than the one I posted. Is that clear enough for you?

As I said, I simply listed what had been discussed thus far. And yea the points you added are general tree man 101 shit that a large majority of us all ready know. Certainly nothing worthy of posting this tasteless vid of a young man dying before our eyes.

And we are not discussing the full vid here, are we. I would like to personally thank you for not posting the full vid here.

Now kindly do us both a favor and put me on ignore. Clear enough bro?

 

[ClimberClyde]

As I said, I simply listed what had been discussed thus far. And yea the points you added are general tree man 101 shit that a large majority of us all ready know. Certainly nothing worthy of posting this tasteless vid of a young man dying before our eyes.

And we are not discussing the full vid here, are we. I would like to personally thank you for not posting the full vid here.

Now kindly do us both a favor and put me on ignore. Clear enough bro?

Sorry to offend you with my "intro to tree care" class. You didn't have to attend or interrupt the discussion. This isn't just about the 101 stuff that we should all know. My discussion has been about the necessity of regulation. But I happily will take you up on your offer!

 

[Recon]

I had been operating under the assumption that the Z was effectively the law under which OSHA can fine you. I know lots of guys who've been fined for their groundies not having chaps or hard hats. Is that the extent of their bite? That is fucking infuriating. I know that locally, I would have a waaaay easier time finding good gigs if those were the rules and not suggestions. It's all making more sense now.

I believe if you're a tree care business, while there isn't any OSHA specific tree care mandates, you still must comply with 1910. I follow Z though.

 

[Matias]

Unpopular opinion probably, but I see value purely in the shock of witnessing it. I won’t forget this video, but I’ve already forgotten dozens of “near miss” videos. This is the kind of thing you can show a young kid and make a lasting impression. They never think it’ll happen to them and this vid could shake that complacency.

I do agree that sharing this type of vid just for the hell of it is in poor taste. But this forum is one of the very few places online where it has great potential value. Even if we can’t learn anything new from it we can still use it to scare some new guys into climbing safely and deliberately.

I was looking for these words Buck. As a relatively new climber, this will stick in my memory much more than the near misses I have seen countless times. I have been lucky way too many times, and I urge everyone that expresses interest in this work to not do what I did and just buy a rope, harness of some sort, and a saw, and just try figuring it out. Nobody was ever filming me, and my death likely wouldn't have even been reported as a tree work accident.

That lifeless body hanging there will haunt me, probably forever. I only watched it once to get a very clear picture of exactly how a guy could let this happen.

The only folks here arguing that we shouldn't watch this are seasoned, experienced professionals. Easier to say when you've seen so much terrible shit, and in real life.

As a non expert, I got value out of this whole thread, and I thank everyone for their diverse contributions. Even Murphy, who made me stop and really think about an unusual idea for rescue that I had never heard before. I still don't think it's a good idea, but I respect the thought process. Who knows. We may end up seeing a video one day of a life being saved with that madness.

 

[rico]

So ya needed to post a vid of a dead young man hanging in a fucking tree to start a discussion about the necessity for regulation? Got it?

 

[Matias]

So ya needed to post a vid of a dead young man hanging in a fucking tree to start a discussion about the necessity for regulation? Got it?

Yea, those things could be two separate conversations for sure.

 

[27RMT0N]

I discuss safety with my newbie part time employee every day we work together. While I won't show this video, I will explain what happened, the mistakes leading up to it, how it could have been prevented and how to react if you found yourself on site when something like that happens.

 

[TreeCo]

Did I miss anything?

Here's something you missed that the video clearly shows:

The importance of clearing the bole of all limbs and stubs for at least 4 or 5 feet above the top felling cut. What killed this young man was a limb crotch that caught him when the top went over backwards. Had that limb been flush cut he may still have been killed by the bole hitting him.........but for sure it wouldn't have caught his neck in the crotch.

 

[Serf Life]

Unpopular opinion probably, but I see value purely in the shock of witnessing it. I won’t forget this video, but I’ve already forgotten dozens of “near miss” videos. This is the kind of thing you can show a young kid and make a lasting impression. They never think it’ll happen to them and this vid could shake that complacency.

I do agree that sharing this type of vid just for the hell of it is in poor taste. But this forum is one of the very few places online where it has great potential value. Even if we can’t learn anything new from it we can still use it to scare some new guys into climbing safely and deliberately.

Finally a valid answer! I haven’t watched it but I know what you mean, some stories/videos hit harder and stay in the noggin longer. Jed’s passing for example

 

[evo]

Can we look at another video as an example? There is a video out there of a crane coming over and striking the climber. No additional details but likely he died. Is there value in seeing the boom actually striking the climber and killing him? Do we need to see the impact of the steel on his body? It's rhetorical but this is the question I'm encouraging people to ask before the post or share that stuff on an open forum for all to see. Like I said before, the way the video was posted on here.....I didn't have an issue with and never said I did. I was given the ability by the OP to avoid it with a stern warning. I had a choice to not look. On an open FB, not a private group I was half in to the video before I realized what I was seeing. It was too late for me then. Like I said, not censorship but discretion. I would also like to ask how many SEALS Spec Ops guys watch videos of their colleagues getting killed for training and are ok with that being in the general public? How may skydivers watch those videos that focus on the body impact to the ground? What do they learn from the bounce? What does the SEAL learn from the red mist or the flying leg? Im not asking you to change, just think about it and if you still disagree then we disagree. Nothing more to that. Our differing opinion does not equate to the value I think you have as a human. Thats just not normal.

Just for the sake of civil conversation, as this is a good conversation to be had. I recall a couple of programs for ‘safety awareness’ along the lines of “scared straight”. One geared towards driving taught in schools where real footage of maimed bodies in graphic details were shown to entice kids of driving age not to speed and to wear seat belts.
I do understand the logic of this, but at the same time I don’t think it’s very effective. Human nature doesn’t seem to work like that for most, some maybe.
Back in psychology classes it was taught that for our thick skulls to register true reality we are wired that we have to have the experiences. We have to experience the situation with all sensory stimuli for it to sink in as ‘real’. While this is debatable there is a valid point to this, as we draw from our experiential memories to understand the consequences of our actions. The idea behind this is one can tell a small child that fire can burn and hurt them, rarely is this lecture effective until they experience the heat from a fire. Then a small burn from a candle can be extrapolated to understand the coils of an electric range.
Adults just have a larger pool of experience to draw from.
So back to the topic is a video like this an effective educational tool? Maybe in the perfect world, but likely not as many of us haven’t had the experience of facing death, or severe trauma situations. We as a culture and society have become disconnected to death, and I feel that glorification (such as videos like this) is a symptom of this disconnection.

 

[islandarb]

I am listening intently, learning some good humanity stuff. Differing life experiences can really mold us. This thread is settling back down. Nice to see.

 

[Steve Connally]

Just for the sake of civil conversation, as this is a good conversation to be had. I recall a couple of programs for ‘safety awareness’ along the lines of “scared straight”. One geared towards driving taught in schools where real footage of maimed bodies in graphic details were shown to entice kids of driving age not to speed and to wear seat belts.
I do understand the logic of this, but at the same time I don’t think it’s very effective. Human nature doesn’t seem to work like that for most, some maybe.
Back in psychology classes it was taught that for our thick skulls to register true reality we are wired that we have to have the experiences. We have to experience the situation with all sensory stimuli for it to sink in as ‘real’. While this is debatable there is a valid point to this, as we draw from our experiential memories to understand the consequences of our actions. The idea behind this is one can tell a small child that fire can burn and hurt them, rarely is this lecture effective until they experience the heat from a fire. Then a small burn from a candle can be extrapolated to understand the coils of an electric range.
Adults just have a larger pool of experience to draw from.
So back to the topic is a video like this an effective educational tool? Maybe in the perfect world, but likely not as many of us haven’t had the experience of facing death, or severe trauma situations. We as a culture and society have become disconnected to death, and I feel that glorification (such as videos like this) is a symptom of this disconnection.

Great points. I can understand what you're saying. I don't wanna point and counter point everything, I think my stance has been established. Just my personal opinion. I do read your words and understand what you are saying and am taking in the input. I can process counter opinions and consider them with my own. Thanks for responding Evo

 

[rico]

I think you need

Here's something you missed that the video clearly shows:

The importance of clearing the bole of all limbs and stubs for at least 4 or 5 feet above the top felling cut. What killed this young man was a limb crotch that caught him when the top went over backwards. Had that limb been flush cut he may still have been killed by the bole hitting him.........but for sure it wouldn't have caught his neck in the crotch.

Here's something you missed that the video clearly shows:

The importance of clearing the bole of all limbs and stubs for at least 4 or 5 feet above the top felling cut. What killed this young man was a limb crotch that caught him when the top went over backwards. Had that limb been flush cut h

In the spirit of keeping it real ya might want to go back and read post #70. The point of stubs was specifically mentioned, and I even use profanity to get my point across.

“Don‘t leave fucking stubs, no matter how good of an idea you think it is.”

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Too many people who are in the 'show it here' camp are missing a big point. Allof the videos are hosted somewhere else. Just not here. If anyone wants to watch the vids do the smallest amount of your own homework and find the source.

Also, Awakenings is a place of respect for the injured and dead tree workers.

Make comments that have less bark but maybe more bite.

If you feel driven to go personal take it out of Awakenings. Start a new thread for public comment. Maybe sleep on your comment and start a Conversation/DM with someone you don't see eye to eye with.