UK. Two ropes at all times(USA next?)

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Evan Sussman said:
@Brocky . That image you posted about work positioning and fall arrest on the first page... Is that a general at height rule, or one specifically being applied to arboriculture?

It is classing the two types of fall prevention systems seperately, and I see no reason the twin tension system I used the other day (MRS and SRS w/2 zigzags, or 2 x hitch and ropewrench for example) wouldn't meet all the requirements of the "work positioning" half of that rule. Do you?
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That’s the general, which they will be following for tree work now. The back up device on a safety line might have to be automatic to try to make it dummy proof. If the climber has to tend the slack on both lines it might not pass.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
Can someone explain in simple terms how a tree rescue can be done with victim and rescuer on two ropes each?

I’m thinking of 45 years of tree work and the high percentage of trees only having ONE TIP. Now four are needed. Setup time of two can take how long?

These redundant TIPs need to be chosen to support a two person shock load too.

I’m not being facetious either. These are questions that need to be answered before a regulation is written

How was this dealt with at ARC?
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The rescuer ties in to the back up of the victim, and uses the victims primary as the backup. So basically the lines are pre installed if I understand their specs
 
evo said:
The rescuer ties in to the back up of the victim, and uses the victims primary as the backup. So basically the lines are pre installed if I understand their specs
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That's a basic rope access rescue, which of course will only work for us if none of the lines or anchors are compromised.
 
evo said:
The rescuer ties in to the back up of the victim, and uses the victims primary as the backup. So basically the lines are pre installed if I understand their specs
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sO the rescuer then piggybacks themselves onto the victim? If I'm getting this rightsthe the victim's whole system is double loaded. The rescuer should have their own sytsem...from TIPs on down.
 
I’m trying to keep an open mind while reading about this,and I love the benefits of two tie in points in certain situations,but i have to ask?
1) I’m in the US,am i in jeopardy of loosing the freedom of moving around a canopy on one line?
2) I f so has anyone started a camp for climbers opposed to this,at least until they’ve had time to experiment?
I would hate to wake up one day and realize im about to lose the freedom of srt as we know it now,and did nothing to help save it.
I understand the benefits of two tip (i suffered compression fracture in my spine from tie in point failure while footlocking)but as of right now I’m more afraid of losing my option of tying in once to a place I feel comfortable with than I am falling again. I might support backing up tip somehow.Something like making it mandatory to have canopy tie in secured by another rope from a secondary tip? But to have to go back to dragging 50,60,70 foot of extra rope around,thats scaring me!
 
Tom Dunlap said:
sO the rescuer then piggybacks themselves onto the victim? If I'm getting this rightsthe the victim's whole system is double loaded. The rescuer should have their own sytsem...from TIPs on down.
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I agree buttt, if the climber has two independent ropes and two tips it is some what redundant. If in a static hang and each tip line is sharing the load that’s one thing (or rated anchors). I wasn’t at the class recently, and no nothing of other rope techniques
 
Wrangler said:
I would hate to wake up one day and realize I'm about to lose the freedom of srt as we know it now,and did nothing to help save it.
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I think this threat is what made Reg mad when the talk of this double rope system even started. I think he felt like it was the industrial access guys trying to horn in on the arb industry and ram their standards down our collective throats. It seems to be that his fears were well grounded. I should probably not be speaking for him though. I do share the sentiment, though.

Tim
 
Jeff pointed out (in addition to it not always being the best option) that it had taken him over a year of practice to be really fluid and efficient with two separate wrench systems.
I like the premise of having a backup on the initial ascent. Once I have inspected my primary TIP, I can leave an access line and use it for positioning somewhere else in the canopy. Mandating two lines at all times is dumb, and I don't think it will happen. I think I read in the last thread about it that it hasn't even happened in the UK yet.
Learning to use tricks where they are useful or increase safety is a worthwhile endeavor.
Evan is a solid climber. I don't think he is wasting his time.
 
I think the utility workers are already being made to follow the new rules. The rest are waiting for the official rules to be written up.

My understanding is they have to use a mewp if possible, and only climb if it is the safer option, cost wouldn’t be an excuse if a climber got injuries and the officials determined a mewp should have be used, might lead to fines, etc.

In the long thread on Arbtalk there was some mention of not being able to use top handle saws, but nothing specific, more good news!
 
SomethingWitty said:
Jeff pointed out (in addition to it not always being the best option) that it had taken him over a year of practice to be really fluid and efficient with two separate wrench systems.
I like the premise of having a backup on the initial ascent. Once I have inspected my primary TIP, I can leave an access line and use it for positioning somewhere else in the canopy. Mandating two lines at all times is dumb, and I don't think it will happen. I think I read in the last thread about it that it hasn't even happened in the UK yet.
Learning to use tricks where they are useful or increase safety is a worthwhile endeavor.
Evan is a solid climber. I don't think he is wasting his time.
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Yes,on a positive note the caliber of some of the climbers working on making this look fluid is going to produce some great ideas and techniques,heck I picked up some good things just watching vid and listening to ideas being put out there. However watching a video of it being done fluidly would be wonderful right now,the one i saw this morning was not very encouraging as far as making this look like something i would like to do on every climb.
 
rico said:
Classic. A tool built for a specific industry that said industry won't allow its workers to use. Fear seems to be the guiding force these days?
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Some of the industrial safety crowd (not industrial climbers) think a rope is only as good as its last use, and think ropes should be backed up at all times, so I think it comes from the new safety religion that pervades corporate industry these days.

After all, corporates know best....
 
It’s really all about the anchors. Can anyone show me a fatality from a climbing line failure? Once you exclude the fact one should have been tied in twice while using a saw. And then exclude tip failures, or tree failures what’s left? Sure one could have a bomber tip and take one higher up leaving the bomber as a backup.
However, most cases if your working twin line (around here in conifer land) two independent tips is a pita to set from the ground, and if set base anchored your tip breaks out you don’t have far to go till the next limb
 
evo said:
It’s really all about the anchors. Can anyone show me a fatality from a climbing line failure? Once you exclude the fact one should have been tied in twice while using a saw. And then exclude tip failures, or tree failures what’s left? Sure one could have a bomber tip and take one higher up leaving the bomber as a backup.
However, most cases if your working twin line (around here in conifer land) two independent tips is a pita to set from the ground, and if set base anchored your tip breaks out you don’t have far to go till the next limb
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I can only think of a few times.
#1 the Kong sherrill ring failures
#2 the weaver bridge failures
#3 the dumb ass I watched tie his hitch upside down and jump off a 20’ ladder
 
evo said:
I can only think of a few times.
#1 the Kong sherrill ring failures
#2 the weaver bridge failures
#3 the dumb ass I watched tie his hitch upside down and jump off a 20’ ladder
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The real risk is probably cut base tie.

Fall arrest situation without absorber you are probably hoping the line breaks...

During night storm work some time years ago set a Roof Safety Line over a large house for the storm guys to position from. After getting it dually inspected was right to go, installed barrier tape around anchors, and called to team line was set, and there was a five minute delay. Now right to go, I went and inspected the system again before use as we were using a vehicle on one of the anchors with people.

Testing the tension it was untensioned! (yet attached to vehicle). WTF! Checked other concealed anchor and the system was undone! WTF! Quickly called stop work to prevent anyone committing to the system, and with the team leader retied and retensioned the system. Installed barrier tape again and rechecked vehicle side.

Vehicle side was half disassembed as well! Quickly retied and team leader inspected and re-installed barrier tape. Called stop work to everyone, and no one to move! With the team leader I reinspected the concealed anchor, and it was half disassembled so it looked tied, but was ready to unravel. WTF!

Turns out a newly qualified trainer and supposed safety officer wanted to do a lesson on tying a Roof safety Line to the team at night on a call when people were about to get on the roof, without telling a soul, and was untying the system and getting called away each time.

You can't invent this stuff.

I sometimes have little faith in unproven delegates telling me how to do things as authority can sometimes be misplaced.
 
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Chaplain242 said:
The real risk is probably cut base tie. Fall arrest situation without absorber you are probably hoping the line breaks...
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My observation is that people that fear base ties are the ones with little experience using them. Tons of safety when used to their potential. Even low stretch ropes produce vastly reduced shock and trauma when doubled in length.
 
Chaplain242 said:
Fall arrest situation without absorber you are probably hoping the line breaks...
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When I was putting together my first ascending system I thought that adding a screamer to the upper unit made sense. Then i read up on the loads that would trigger it. What I found was that I would never generate those loads using arbo ropes and keeping long drops out of my climbing style. The screamer would have been clutter and false security. Plus the tree flexes absorbing a LOT of energy
ss
 
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