"One handing" a chainsaw??!!

[southsoundtree]

#1 hazard in tree work is under-schooled/under-skilled.

Don't forget the overconfident.


No, really, it's the fault of those darned unpredictable trees.




Someone can have their own company and GL and be an employee.

What you describe is absolutely an employee in WA State. Your equipment on the job, your orchestration/ supervision, your employee.

They come in and do the subcontracted work, with their tools, supervising themself/ their employees, you say yes or no to whether or not the terms of the subcontract agreement have been met or not, then they are a subcontractor.

 

[Jehinten]

A few of you have mentioned that there's always another option besides one handing. How do you guys handle the extremely dead brittle trees that can't be rigged because there's no suitable anchor point and if you tried to rig the shaking of the tree would break out the top. Snap cuts and hand saws are also no good on these trees.

I've had some where I would cut it down in 1 foot pieces until I get to the trunk, and I'd support the weight of the piece I was cutting until the cut was finished to prevent any leverage on the rest of the limb before letting it fall to the ground (no targets below) others you have to cut and chuck to avoid structures or other valuables.

 

[Gareth's Tree]

What you describe is absolutely an employee in WA State. Your equipment on the job, your orchestration/ supervision, your employee.

They come in and do the subcontracted work, with their tools, supervising themself/ their employees, you say yes or no to whether or not the terms of the subcontract agreement have been met or not, then they are a subcontractor.

I am not questioning if they should be employees or not. I'm questioning if I can afford a 50% increase in payroll costs by making them employees...

 

[Phillip Schissler]

I am guessing the terminology is just different then what I'm used to, but what are you referring to when you say snap cut?

Make two cuts, staggered on opposite sides of the branch that bypass each other.

 

[Gareth's Tree]

Make two cuts, staggered on opposite sides of the branch that bypass each other.

when you do one cut on top and one cut on the bottom I have heard that referred to as a jump-cut. Are you talking about one cut on one side and one on the other side and then put the saw down and break the branch off by hand?

 

[Birdyman88]

If I was to decrease my production and increase my overhead I am not sure that my market would support the increase in price I would have to make to compensate for it.

Have you ever considered applying a LEAN analysis to your business. I convinced a friend of mine to do it with his cabinet shop, and he's rocking now. He was skeptical at first, but he's seen some serious gains in efficiency. Good enough to get a large commercial contract.

I am smaller, but my operation is very lean. For instance, our basic rigging equipment is all pre-configured for knotless using the same process, slings, carabiners, pulleys, etc. The only thing we have to choose is the strength rating. I have 2 basic sets, light for under 300 lb static @10%, medium for up to 900 lb static @10%. Each kit has rope option for natural crotch or mechanical. Also, each kit can double as speedline, drift line, or as pull line with everything needed to setup a 5:1 MA system. This constitutes the bulk of our jobs. Really easy for my groundie to use a both kits are setup the same. The heavy equipment requires a little more input from me. Just some thoughts.

 

[Gareth's Tree]

Have you ever considered applying a LEAN analysis to your business. I convinced a friend of mine to do it with his cabinet shop, and he's rocking now. He was skeptical at first, but he's seen some serious gains in efficiency. Good enough to get a large commercial contract.
I am smaller, but my operation is very lean. Our basic rigging equipment is all pre-configured for knotless using the same process, slings, carabiners, pulleys, etc. The only thing we have to choose is the strength rating. I have 2 basic sets, light for under 300 lb static @10%, medium for up to 900 lb static @10%. Each kit has rope option for natural crotch or mechanical. Also, each kit can double as speedline, or as pull line with everything needed to setup a 5:1 MA system. This constitutes the bulk of our jobs. Really easy for my groundie to use a both kits are setup the same. The heavy equipment requires a little more input from me. Just some thoughts.

Good thoughts. We have done a number of things to be more efficient but there is always room for improvement...

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Production = efficiency accomplished safely

Hi Tony,

good definitions, and ones that should be understood.

In my experience when this topic, and by extension, following proper, peer-reviewed work practices are talked about the definition of 'production' that drives their workplace tend towards cubic feet of chips per hour. Head count. The field crew is pushed to make up for a miss-bid by sales.

 

[Phillip Schissler]

Hi Tony,

good definitions, and ones that should be understood.

In my experience when this topic, and by extension, following proper, peer-reviewed work practices are talked about the definition of 'production' that drives their workplace tend towards cubic feet of chips per hour. Head count. The field crew is pushed to make up for a miss-bid by sales.

Experienced this doing line clearance. Working on overgrown sections with Flaggers on winding road with blind corners. Also lots of fog. Not trimmed well in the past and way overdue for maintenance trimming. Working steady and safely as possible and the power company forester comes out and basically says we’re not moving fast enough. Continued to come out and harass us. I just held my ground until they eventually kicked me off the project. Not uncommon for that utility. First guy I ever worked with told me no job is worth your life. Funny how easy it is to forget that when you do dangerous stuff everyday.

 

[Phillip Schissler]

when you do one cut on top and one cut on the bottom I have heard that referred to as a jump-cut. Are you talking about one cut on one side and one on the other side and then put the saw down and break the branch off by hand?

Yep.

 

[ATH]

I am not questioning if they should be employees or not. I'm questioning if I can afford a 50% increase in payroll costs by making them employees...

You should be questioning whether you can afford an IRS visit wanting unpaid income taxes that should have been withheld or SSI taxes. Or state realizes workers comp isn't being paid, etc...

 

[adolan]

In regards to the one handing- if there is a want to stop doing it then there is always a way to do it will two hands. I worked for my first 7 years one handing daily. Changed companies to one where one handing did not happen. I worked there for 2 seasons and had no problem sticking to the rules. We did a lot of reduction pruning which is tricky not one handing but you figure it out. Ive since left that company and I am still one handing but not very often. I don't think one handing increases production so much that it is worth the risk. I developed issues with my elbows and shoulders from one handing- so it's not always the risk of kick back etc.

My 2 cents- do it if you think there is nothing wrong with it but there is always another way.

Stay safe out there !

 

[Phillip Schissler]

Isn't it possible that there are some arborists out there who can performs feats of daring and get away with it because they are trained, experienced (meaning practiced), and just plain talented. I mean there are people in this world who can do stuff that most of us can't do. To name a few: Navy SEALS, circus performers, professional athletes, legendary guitar players, etc. Yes it takes training and practice, lots of it, but some of these arborists HAVE done what it takes. I mean some people actually can do this shit and walk away unscathed. Not condoning, and I agree with safety protocols and follow them because I don't believe I'm that person. I'm just saying that there are some climbers out there who ARE that good. And the Brits do have a one-hand technique that they condone for special situations.

EDIT: I want to add this ... when I grew up and was working ground with my brother-in-law way down south in the pines, we had a kid my age who became our climber. He was one of those guys that was always great at any athletic endeavor. He also drank like a fish, had a bad drug habit, did a little breaking and entering, and always liked to fight. I saw this guy swim underwater across a river and come from under a log and grab a moccassin off of it once. He was known for this kind of stuff. Anyway, that was 1984. 35 years later, he is still doing tree work at very reasonable prices and has been one-handing chainsaws for 35 years without incident, and to my knowledge has never had one major accident on the job. He is considered a professional athlete in my book, and I would probably never question this guy. Point is, I just believe everyone needs to be honest with themselves about who they are and what they're capable of.

Worked with a guy like this when I did line clearance. Been doing it 20 plus years. One handed like a maniac, got the boom close as he could to MAD. Snap cutting huge rounds instead of roping. It honestly was a spectacle. Could toss brush exactly where he wanted. Utility loved him cause he never said no or asked for help. Just said oh he’s just hard on equipment. Apprentices look up to him cause he does gnarly stuff. So one day I’m working with an apprentice and they’re one handing in a really dangerous way. I stop them and tell them to come down. The first response was “well mr one hand does it all the time and no one says anything.” Something else to consider.

 

[SomethingWitty]

Worked with a guy like this when I did line clearance. Been doing it 20 plus years. One handed like a maniac, got the boom close as he could to MAD. Snap cutting huge rounds instead of roping. It honestly was a spectacle. Could toss brush exactly where he wanted. Utility loved him cause he never said no or asked for help. Just said oh he’s just hard on equipment. Apprentices look up to him cause he does gnarly stuff. So one day I’m working with an apprentice and they’re one handing in a really dangerous way. I stop them and tell them to come down. The first response was “well mr one hand does it all the time and no one says anything.” Something else to consider.

I bet that dude also does cock pushups. He will tell you that he got lucky a bunch of times when he was learning.
I'm quick to call a greenhorn a greenhorn. Lucky until you're good is not an option under my supervision.
The ability to smoke them up and down a tree (while following your own rules) all week long is the only thing I have found to cure piss and vinegar.
I have no idea how to make people follow your safety rules and to care without showing that you can be fast, too.

 

[rope-a-dope]

A few of you have mentioned that there's always another option besides one handing. How do you guys handle the extremely dead brittle trees that can't be rigged because there's no suitable anchor point and if you tried to rig the shaking of the tree would break out the top. Snap cuts and hand saws are also no good on these trees.

I've had some where I would cut it down in 1 foot pieces until I get to the trunk, and I'd support the weight of the piece I was cutting until the cut was finished to prevent any leverage on the rest of the limb before letting it fall to the ground (no targets below) others you have to cut and chuck to avoid structures or other valuables.

Well everything is pretty much the same as you described, but you just put your other hand back on the saw until it's not cutting anymore. Snap cuts work fine with chainsaws in dead brittle wood. Little 1 foot pieces are a great example of how its not necessary to hold what you're cutting. It's not going anywhere until you touch it.

 

[Jehinten]

Well everything is pretty much the same as you described, but you just put your other hand back on the saw until it's not cutting anymore. Snap cuts work fine with chainsaws in dead brittle wood. Little 1 foot pieces are a great example of how its not necessary to hold what you're cutting. It's not going anywhere until you touch it.

I agree with you on most trees. I've had some where too much weight, the force of a snap cut, would break off 10-15' pieces well past where your prepared to take the piece. This leaves a lot of wood with the possibility to land on structures.

Working near a privacy fence and power wires I had a limb do exactly that. Luckily being dead and only 4-6" diameter I was able to catch and direct it. This one was probably 8-10 feet long and released after I cut about a foot off the end of it. The piece I cut off was hung up in another limb supporting the rest of the limbs weight.


I'm not trying to convince anyone to one hand, just curious if there's a technique out there that I missed that would work for stuff that's that brittle.

 

[ATH]

So you are saying that it is too heavy to two hand the saw, but you can catch it on the way down when you are using the saw with one hand???

 

[Leroy]

most of the time I hold the saw in my teeth so I can 2 hand the wood

 

[Jehinten]

So you are saying that it is too heavy to two hand the saw, but you can catch it on the way down when you are using the saw with one hand???

What I meant was the force of snapping the cut would break the limb further down. The tree is at the point where it can barely hold it's own weight. By holding the piece and cutting there's zero shock load to the tree

A lot of people around here's idea of caring for their trees means looking up at them for years as they rot, then calling and saying that they need it to come down yesterday because their scared of it.

 

[southsoundtree]

Worked with a guy like this when I did line clearance. Been doing it 20 plus years. One handed like a maniac, got the boom close as he could to MAD. Snap cutting huge rounds instead of roping. It honestly was a spectacle. Could toss brush exactly where he wanted. Utility loved him cause he never said no or asked for help. Just said oh he’s just hard on equipment. Apprentices look up to him cause he does gnarly stuff. So one day I’m working with an apprentice and they’re one handing in a really dangerous way. I stop them and tell them to come down. The first response was “well mr one hand does it all the time and no one says anything.” Something else to consider.

You tell that kid to adjust their judgment Pronto, and quit being a Dum Newb, before killing someone, or getting hurt.

Teaching judgment is way harder than technique.
The sh*t YouTube and forums don't teach.

You have to train them, and instill in ten that if they f@ck up, no Nintendo reset button... Someone is dead or hurt.

Two guys are/ were in Harborview Trauma, in Seattle, simultaneously

Go train that kid with some good pictures of trying to be The Man, when not The Man.

Hard on equipment is not a model to follow. If you're hard on equipment, your short on finesse, I'm, unless directed to "Get 'er Dun!" By the person signing checks.