Which rigging rope to buy!

[Nish]

Since when is heavy stuff 100 ft. high? Are you in the pnw? I keep a 150' hank for heavy stuff.

It seems to me that a brand new 150' rigging rope is too short, either because we're setting blocks at 75' or more, pulling a piece away from a tree with a tagline (while still holding it on the rigging line with the portawrap), or somehow abusing the tail and losing a few feet off the ends. Even with 3/4" line, I'd want it as a 200' piece to pull over heavy leaners where we're often base-anchoring the line or running it through re-directs. I just got a fancy new-to-me laser range finder that measures tree heights. I believe we do have a number of 25-30" dbh 120' tall residential pines removals on our summer to-do list. A few of the hardwoods--tulips, red oaks, willow oaks--occasionally approach that height as well I believe. Not like the PNW though.

 

[JeffGu]

I have found the same thing... that 200' gives you more room to play, especially when the groundie can get further from the tree when it is safer or when that gives a better view of the operation. When I'm using friction in the tree and 1/2" rope, I can usually get by with 100'~150' of rope, but I have a couple of 1/2" 200' lines, too. They're nice when you need them.

I seldom am up a tree that's over 75', but we have lots of cottonwoods here, and a 120' one is by no means rare. They're lightning magnets, so we do occasionally remove them.

 

[evo]

PNW style is 250'-300' 3/8ths line, small pieces and letting it run forever. Keep the big ropes for the big wood. Do wish I had a 300'-400' 9/16ths, and a different rope for every task, but my 4-5 rigging lines will do.

 

[colb]

It seems to me that a brand new 150' rigging rope is too short, either because we're setting blocks at 75' or more, pulling a piece away from a tree with a tagline (while still holding it on the rigging line with the portawrap), or somehow abusing the tail and losing a few feet off the ends. Even with 3/4" line, I'd want it as a 200' piece to pull over heavy leaners where we're often base-anchoring the line or running it through re-directs. I just got a fancy new-to-me laser range finder that measures tree heights. I believe we do have a number of 25-30" dbh 120' tall residential pines removals on our summer to-do list. A few of the hardwoods--tulips, red oaks, willow oaks--occasionally approach that height as well I believe. Not like the PNW though.

How do you pull over a heavy leaner with 3/4" line? That's like 30k tensile mbs. Are you generating that much force and with what device? What about the hinge wood holding under that force? What about the TIP holding under that much force? Plus, you're in basket configuration with a base tie, so it's more like 60k mbs, right? That's some amazaballs tipping, whatever you're doing.

 

[RBJtree]

I have a 200 ft 5/8ths I bought in that length because I sometimes pull trees with my 1 ton, sometimes with a redirect. I don't like tying ropes together when pulling with that much force available. I've broken half inch rope with the truck. 9/16ths would probably do it, 5/8ths gives me a margin of safety. The tree would probably break before a 15,000 lbs mbs rope. Just to know for sure, I would like to break test some 5/8ths with my truck, wheels on pavement, in 4 low, steady pull no jerking. But its expensive rope.
I also use that rope for heavy rigging and it is sometimes annoying for it to be that long, when blocking down a 50 foot or less spar for example.

 

[Nish]

How do you pull over a heavy leaner with 3/4" line? That's like 30k tensile mbs. Are you generating that much force and with what device? What about the hinge wood holding under that force? What about the TIP holding under that much force? Plus, you're in basket configuration with a base tie, so it's more like 60k mbs, right? That's some amazaballs tipping, whatever you're doing.

The ABS of brand new 3/4" Stable Braid is 20,400 lbs. For Notch Kraken it's 18,400 lbs. Add a bowline and you've maybe brought the Kraken down to 13,000 lbs ABS or so. Our rigging ropes are rarely brand new and clean. It's not impossible to generate 13,000 lbs of pull with heavy duty MA systems paired with trucks or an SK1550. But we don't really want to get anywhere close to the breaking strength of an old rope with its knots. Let's say the older, used Kraken with a bowline now has an breaking strength of 11,000 lbs. Suppose for safety we don't want to pull above 1/5 of that. Now we're down to 2,200 lbs. Tree strength is another complicating factor, but having a rope that I know is not going to break allows me to focus on the other variables. As for the hinge, it's often the holding wood that we're supporting by pulling trees against their side lean, etc.

 

[Kenny Sanchez]

I use samson pro master 1/2" 3 strand. Perfect for natural rigging and to us with maasdam rope puller. Very inexpensive as well, 200ft about $90

 

[RBJtree]

The ABS of brand new 3/4" Stable Braid is 20,400 lbs. For Notch Kraken it's 18,400 lbs. Add a bowline and you've maybe brought the Kraken down to 13,000 lbs ABS or so. Our rigging ropes are rarely brand new and clean. It's not impossible to generate 13,000 lbs of pull with heavy duty MA systems paired with trucks or an SK1550. But we don't really want to get anywhere close to the breaking strength of an old rope with its knots. Let's say the older, used Kraken with a bowline now has an breaking strength of 11,000 lbs. Suppose for safety we don't want to pull above 1/5 of that. Now we're down to 2,200 lbs. Tree strength is another complicating factor, but having a rope that I know is not going to break allows me to focus on the other variables. As for the hinge, it's often the holding wood that we're supporting by pulling trees against their side lean, etc.

1/5 is great for safety, but in a static pull situation, I am personally comfortable with going much closer to tensile strenght (after a safe knot deduction), as long as I have all potential slack out of the system suck as running knots that are not completely cinched down and may suddenly tighten causing a shock load.

 

[DavidRicks]

1/5 is great for safety, but in a static pull situation, I am personally comfortable with going much closer to tensile strenght (after a safe knot deduction), as long as I have all potential slack out of the system suck as running knots that are not completely cinched down and may suddenly tighten causing a shock load.

Approaching tensile strength on a static pull gives me pause unless I know (and have been present for) every load applied to the rope being used. I will always opt for a seemingly larger than necessary double braid line for any critical pull as cycles-to-failure is something I often think about when machines & MA systems are being used to coax over heavy wood.

 

[Nish]

Approaching tensile strength on a static pull gives me pause unless I know (and have been present for) every load applied to the rope being used. I will always opt for a seemingly larger than necessary double braid line for any critical pull as cycles-to-failure is something I often think about when machines & MA systems are being used to coax over heavy wood.

Good point. In my mind the big worry is I don't have a good feel for how much pull we're creating with the trucks or minis. Probably the operators don't either. We've broken plenty of the dinky 1/2" 12-strand (abs 6,000lbs) with the SK1550. I recall a Treebuzzer casually mentioning breaking 3/4" doublebraid with dump trucks. To learn about these things maybe we need a load cell. Rock Exotica's Enforcer only has a 20KN capacity (4496 lbs), but we can presumably put the Enforcer on a block and tackle system and pull from the reverse side.

 

[RBJtree]

Approaching tensile strength on a static pull gives me pause unless I know (and have been present for) every load applied to the rope being used. I will always opt for a seemingly larger than necessary double braid line for any critical pull as cycles-to-failure is something I often think about when machines & MA systems are being used to coax over heavy wood.

I was thinking maybe half after knot deduction, rather than 1/5. So if my maasdan rope puller pulls 1000lbs and I use it to pull through a 3 to 1 thus making 3000 lbs of pull, my samson pro-master 3 strand has always and only been used for the rope puller so I'm going to calculate its strength as almost new, lets call it 5,000 - 15% for the running bow = 4250lbs... thats closer than I thought. Glad I did the math. I might have to find some stronger 3 strand for the rope puller!

 

[DavidRicks]

Good point. In my mind the big worry is I don't have a good feel for how much pull we're creating with the trucks or minis. Probably the operators don't either. We've broken plenty of the dinky 1/2" 12-strand (abs 6,000lbs) with the SK1550. I recall a Treebuzzer casually mentioning breaking 3/4" doublebraid with dump trucks. To learn about these things maybe we need a load cell. Rock Exotica's Enforcer only has a 20KN capacity (4496 lbs), but we can presumably put the Enforcer on a block and tackle system and pull from the reverse side.

Agreed on all fronts. A load cell + time to play around with it would be awesome!

 

[DavidRicks]

I was thinking maybe half after knot deduction, rather than 1/5. So if my maasdan rope puller pulls 1000lbs and I use it to pull through a 3 to 1 thus making 3000 lbs of pull, my samson pro-master 3 strand has always and only been used for the rope puller so I'm going to calculate its strength as almost new, lets call it 5,000 - 15% for the running bow = 4250lbs... thats closer than I thought. Glad I did the math. I might have to find some stronger 3 strand for the rope puller!

Good call on the conservative approach and looking for a stronger line! Also, is your rope always stored in a bag away from gas, oil & wood chips and is kept out of the sunlight most of the time (UV degradation)? If not, you might want to start your equation at say 4000-4500 lbs(?)...For all of these factors, I'd choose a larger than seemingly necessary doublebraid....

 

[RBJtree]

Good call on the conservative approach and looking for a stronger line! Also, is your rope always stored in a bag away from gas, oil & wood chips and is kept out of the sunlight most of the time (UV degradation)? If not, you might want to start your equation at say 4000-4500 lbs(?)...For all of these factors, I'd choose a larger than seemingly necessary doublebraid....

I store most of my ropes in plastic bins. The particular rope in question is stored in a bin in the back seat of my 4 door one ton. I see the tree master is rated considerably higher, its now on my things to buy list. I would love to use a 9/16 stable braid with the rope puller, but it doesn't fit. I use 9/16ths or 5/8ths for truck pulls depending on tree size and lean.

 

[Jonny]

Good call on the conservative approach and looking for a stronger line! Also, is your rope always stored in a bag away from gas, oil & wood chips and is kept out of the sunlight most of the time (UV degradation)? If not, you might want to start your equation at say 4000-4500 lbs(?)...For all of these factors, I'd choose a larger than seemingly necessary doublebraid....

What effect do wood chips have on a rope? That's new to me.
Thanks!

 

[Chaplain242]

What effect do wood chips have on a rope? That's new to me.
Thanks!

My understanding has been sawdust and chips from chainsaws can have oil contamination. Also possible is minimal leaching acid from the chips/dust particularly if damp/wet conditions which then dry to concentrate any acetic acid leached effectively accelerating rope degradation. This is of course worse on Palms and Coral trees and the like (which can eat away alloy sprocket covers overnight if left uncleaned)