Elm Prognosis?

Well, you know I thought the tree was in decline and doing something at this point was better than watching the dieback progress year after year. My thought process was...two large girdling roots, cutting them may hurt the tree, but with the state of decline I would rather try. Maybe I screwed it up. So I'm guessing you would have just monitored this?
But let me ask a question, girdling roots are a major cause of structural failure as it is correct?
 
Last edited:
Yowsa Guy...

He said he wasn't gonna spend more dough and took it upon himself to do the work. I don't think Jesse pointed him in any sort of an egregious direction. Probably "You-Tubed" it...

And yes, those roots can lead to a failure point in addition to gradual decline in vitality.
 
btw Part 8 is being revised soon--5 years flew by!--so if anyone has input on how to improve it and avoid this kind of confusion, please share your thoughts!

"Girdling roots should be exposed before pruning cuts are planned or made.
(Girdling roots that provide more benefit than damage should be retained.)"

There must be a better way to get the message across; this attempt surely did fail.
 
Pic 1099 shows an upper root cut, and a parallel root still intact underneath? Seeing that, it does not seem to threaten the sapstream in that vertical segment of the tree. But is there another cut maybe 4" out?
That's the one I was reacting most to; it could be a vision issue on my part....is that black line just dirt? If it is a cut, what was the thinking?

And I feel your pain re digging out roots; 2 hours grubbing out Poison ivy roots on this job; I was wasted after that!
 

Attachments

guymayor said:
Pic 1099 shows an upper root cut, and a parallel root still intact underneath? Seeing that, it does not seem to threaten the sapstream in that vertical segment of the tree. But is there another cut maybe 4" out?
That's the one I was reacting most to; it could be a vision issue on my part....is that black line just dirt? If it is a cut, what was the thinking?
And I feel your pain re digging out roots; 2 hours grubbing out Poison ivy roots on this job; I was wasted after that!
Click to expand...

"More benefit than damage" is the subjective part where arborist might have helped sway my decision but I decided to risk it instead of forking out $500 more dollars. My first 400 were certainly a waste. After reading for a few hours last night it seems this tree has all of the symptoms of girdling roots. Yellowing leaves that are falling early, sparse canopy, etc yes I know it could be a bunch of other things but oh well I knew I might kill it. The tree looks pretty hopeless as it was. I found another nice elm in my yard and even being half the diameter the canopy is totally different, beautiful and full.

I'm not sure I know which area you are talking about. There were 5 cuts. The origin from the trunk was first top right cut, it was so large I made another vertical cut about 1 foot to left of that just to make removal easier. The root circled clockwise with an outward projecting branch in the middle of the pic(3rd cut-black line at bottom of root/bottom of photo), then continued clockwise 4th cut to the upper left area where it passed under a separate outward root. The 5th spot was sectioned just below that.
 
Last edited:
guymayor said:
Pic 1099 shows an upper root cut, and a parallel root still intact underneath? Seeing that, it does not seem to threaten the sapstream in that vertical segment of the tree. But is there another cut maybe 4" out?
That's the one I was reacting most to; it could be a vision issue on my part....is that black line just dirt? If it is a cut, what was the thinking?

And I feel your pain re digging out roots; 2 hours grubbing out Poison ivy roots on this job; I was wasted after that!
Click to expand...
I'm not sure we're looking at the same photo... I see one root pruned in 1099. Hard to guess the size but it looks like a big chunk was removed that was girdling maybe 2-3% of the circumference.
 
arthurj said:
I'm not sure I know which area you are talking about. There were 5 cuts. The origin from the trunk was first top right cut, it was so large I made another vertical cut about 1 foot to left of that just to make removal easier. The root circled clockwise with an outward projecting branch in the middle of the pic(black line at bottom of root), then continued clockwise 4th cut to the upper left area where it passed under a separate outward root. The 5th spot was sectioned just below that.
Click to expand...
Oh, so the left puddle in 1099, there were roots there that you pruned away as well?
 
This is the best time to cut roots. The grafting efforts might wait til spring.
I'm trying to integrate examples into our exhibit.

evo said 'I'd go deeper, poke tap around the area I circled. " and that was exactly right. But when this comes out of left field: "until you correct the root issue it will be a stump. It might be a stump anyway, but you don't want it on your house or neighbors.", all reason tends to fly out the window.

The fear that was incited seemed waaaay out of proportion to the conditions observed.
Trees on houses, do you see that happening here? Declining top = short lever arm.
 
arthurj said:
"More benefit than damage" is the subjective part where arborist might have helped sway my decision but I decided to risk it instead of forking out $500 more dollars. My first 400 were certainly a waste. After reading for a few hours last night it seems this tree has all of the symptoms of girdling roots. Yellowing leaves that are falling early, sparse canopy, etc yes I know it could be a bunch of other things but oh well I knew I might kill it. The tree looks pretty hopeless as it was. I found another nice elm in my yard and even being half the diameter the canopy is totally different, beautiful and full.

I'm not sure I know which area you are talking about. There were 5 cuts. The origin from the trunk was first top right cut, it was so large I made another vertical cut about 1 foot to left of that just to make removal easier. The root circled clockwise with an outward projecting branch in the middle of the pic(3rd cut-black line at bottom of root/bottom of photo), then continued clockwise 4th cut to the upper left area where it passed under a separate outward root. The 5th spot was sectioned just below that.
Click to expand...

I do agree with cut # 5 for sure. That was directional pruning to a good lateral. It's best to work from the outside in; maybe that needs to be in A300...
'Decline' is seldom fatal, and we lack crystal balls. Trees are tough and I think yours will survive if it gets pruned correctly.
How are the roots on your younger elm?
 
I see, so the pinkish areas are where cuts were made. The big root you cut was the one originally shown in pic 1095?
 
""More benefit than damage" is the subjective part where arborist might have helped sway my decision"
Yes that is what the $200 man should have opined on. It's depressing to publicize the SGR problem and the protocol for 12 years but still supposedly Qualified arborists ignore the flare.

We tried to say ">10% of the trunk size, and >10% of the circumference girdled". but that was obviously not scientific so instead retreated to vagueland. But a better inspection as 3 of us urged would have lessened the subjectivity problem.
 
guymayor said:
This is the best time to cut roots. The grafting efforts might wait til spring.
I'm trying to integrate examples into our exhibit.

evo said 'I'd go deeper, poke tap around the area I circled. " and that was exactly right. But when this comes out of left field: "until you correct the root issue it will be a stump. It might be a stump anyway, but you don't want it on your house or neighbors.", all reason tends to fly out the window.

The fear that was incited seemed waaaay out of proportion to the conditions observed.
Trees on houses, do you see that happening here? Declining top = short lever arm.
Click to expand...

evo maybe if you passed the BCMA, you would get some perspective instead of guiding tree owners to damage their tree like that. Try reading the Root standard for starters; I hate to say it but many parts of the BMP are not accurate, or responsible guidance.
Click to expand...

Thats cute Guy... Still looking for a reason to blame me.

#1) Yes tree has root issues
#2)Root issues are likely causing the decline
#3)Untreated root issues would likely cause further decline resulting in failure or removal (AKA STUMP)
#4 Possible issues beyond visible (photographed) root issues, might result in needed removal or failure (AKA STUMP)
#5)Removal of limbs declining wont change poor root condition. (AKA STUMP)

I NEVER advocated for DYI other than more than digging, poking, tapping. Even mentioned many times he should get a better quality arborist out. So Mr. BMCA piss off before blaming me for someone else's mistake. Also learn to take a joke, and not be so sensitive. I just might pass that BMCA test if I took it, so might want to change your wording up as you implied that I failed. FYI I have read the BMP's and other standards, I also have no problem saying "I don't know." You might want to be a little more specific with the wrong BMP's, or perhaps it would be most accurate saying "In my opinion and education, many parts of the BMP are not accurate"
 
Last edited:
arthurj said:
"More benefit than damage" is the subjective part where arborist might have helped sway my decision but I decided to risk it instead of forking out $500 more dollars. My first 400 were certainly a waste. After reading for a few hours last night it seems this tree has all of the symptoms of girdling roots. Yellowing leaves that are falling early, sparse canopy, etc yes I know it could be a bunch of other things but oh well I knew I might kill it. The tree looks pretty hopeless as it was. I found another nice elm in my yard and even being half the diameter the canopy is totally different, beautiful and full.

I'm not sure I know which area you are talking about. There were 5 cuts. The origin from the trunk was first top right cut, it was so large I made another vertical cut about 1 foot to left of that just to make removal easier. The root circled clockwise with an outward projecting branch in the middle of the pic(3rd cut-black line at bottom of root/bottom of photo), then continued clockwise 4th cut to the upper left area where it passed under a separate outward root. The 5th spot was sectioned just below that.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the props. While I feel that your action is a bit knee jerk, I am impressed by your ambition and ability to do one of the better DIY jobs I've seen. Do I think you made a mistake taking that root out? Maybe? I'd have to say none of us can make that call, it really would take many more photos, scale reference, and more time than any of us would care to take for a long distance free guidance.
 
Cool, so you only cut one root in 5 places? Between cuts 2 & 3 was left in place? then cut #4 is a branching root off of the main one removed? Just wanting to make sure I am seeing it right
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom