The Illusion of Safety: Safe vs. Safer vs. Safer-er

Muggs comes on here and post a very thoughtful, articulate, honest post wanting to know when safe is safe enough.. Shit is talked, and vids are posted. Soon the Police show up and want to tell men like Travor and Muggs (who clearly know what their doing) how they Should be handling their business. We then discover there are folks here who don't know how to pass a limb safely with a flip-line (wtf is a lanyard) Really? Climbing with only a flip-line is quickly declared as Unsafe. Tell that to the thousands of kickass tree-men who have been doing it for over a 100 years. (checkout Hap Johnson's Coffee Break vid)
We then transition to CTSP # and Creds, hacks and free climbing, sissy belts, falling and death, drooling old men, tape measure's and swinging dicks!
Gee, I wonder why some of the best past and present tree-men in the world chose not to share their insights here (no offense to Reg and August, 2 of the baddest mofo's on Mother earth).
 
Frax said:
It's funny, you hear from the guys who say, "I've done it this way for 20 years, and I'm still alive".
But you never hear from the guys who said "I did it this way for 20 years, and then I died doing it that way" or "I did it this way for 20 years but in year 21 I became a drooling vegetable who needs a poorly paid assistant to help me take a shit".
That second thing is what encourages me to be extra safe. If it was just about dying, I might not try as hard, although I'm never a "cowboy" about anything.

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Frax said:
It's funny, you hear from the guys who say, "I've done it this way for 20 years, and I'm still alive".
But you never hear from the guys who said "I did it this way for 20 years, and then I died doing it that way" or "I did it this way for 20 years but in year 21 I became a drooling vegetable who needs a poorly paid assistant to help me take a shit".
That second thing is what encourages me to be extra safe. If it was just about dying, I might not try as hard, although I'm never a "cowboy" about anything.

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i wouldn't advise anybody to do it this way because thats the way i do it.That would imply i think my way is better and i sure as shit don't
 
Muggs said:
.....

..........


Conclusion

Please don't take any of this the wrong way. I am certainly not condoning any behaviors that we can all agree are unsafe. I simply need you to understand that tree work is not about safety. It's about work. Of course we strive for safety in the execution of our work, but the reason that we come to work is not to "be safe". Learn the rules of the game. Learn how to get the work done in the best and safest way possible. Just don't be delusional about why we do what we do. Going back to our driving analogy, we could argue on the interwebs about what is "safer-er" all day long, but arguing does not get us from point A to point B... driving does.



Climb high, Work smart, Read more. Oh, also, be safe (seriously).

- TreeMuggs
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Please Tree Muggs, don't take this personal but let me put my twist on this and I'm going to rephrase your conclusion to make my point. (my changes to your conclusion are in red. Some may just say my rephrase is just cute, but I'm just adding my perspective. I wouldn't last long on that job with this kind of thinking.
I think we just went back to the propeller age in aviation.

"I simply need you to understand that FLYING is not about safety. It's about GETTING THERE. Of course we strive for safety in the execution of GETTING THERE, but the reason that we FLY is not to "be safe". Learn the rules TO FLY. Learn how to get THERE in the best and safest way possible. Just don't be delusional about why we FLY. Going back to our driving analogy, we could argue on the interwebs about what is "safer-er" all day long, but arguing does not get us from point A to point B... FLYING does.
 
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This conversation has a little trouble fitting in the diversity of all the climbers out there. For example there's climbers who mostly do urban and suburban tree care, there's PNW climbers who are mostly working on large conifers. Pruning a broadleaf tree over a house you're likely calling your second tie-in a "lanyard" not a flip line. And it's not a "sissy-strap", it's more than a second tie-in, it's helping you to get strong positioning so you can climb efficiently, keep going all day and come back the next next day and do it all over again. The climbers on big PNW conifers are using a "lanyard" completely differently, ie: the flip line. Of course there is crossover but it depends what your daily bread is, your climb style and gear reflects it. I'm not saying anything you don't know already, just pointing out the differences being called out are artificial, everyone's doing different kinds of jobs.
-AJ
 
moss said:
This conversation has a little trouble fitting in the diversity of all the climbers out there. For example there's climbers who mostly do urban and suburban tree care, there's PNW climbers who are mostly working on large conifers. Pruning a broadleaf tree over a house you're likely calling your second tie-in a "lanyard" not a flip line. And it's not a "sissy-strap", it's more than a second tie-in, it's helping you to get strong positioning so you can climb efficiently, keep going all day and come back the next next day and do it all over again. The climbers on big PNW conifers are using a "lanyard" completely differently, ie: the flip line. Of course there is crossover but it depends what your daily bread is, your climb style and gear reflects it. I'm not saying anything you don't know already, just pointing out the differences being called out are artificial, everyone's doing different kinds of jobs.
-AJ
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Bingo. Mr Moss for the win!
 
yoyoman said:
I think we just went back to the propeller age in aviation.

"I simply need you to understand that FLYING IS NOT ABOUT SAFETY. It's about GETTING THERE. Of course we strive for safety in the execution of GETTING THERE, but the reason that we FLY is not to "be safe". Learn the rules TO FLY. Learn how to get THERE in the best and safest way possible. Just don't be delusional about why we FLY. Going back to our driving analogy, we could argue on the interwebs about what is "safer-er" all day long, but arguing does not get us from point A to point B... FLYING does.
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It's the landing part that is disconcerting (fills me with dread) Richard...
Even though they all are destined to land, some feature as Mayday episodes.
 
The thing that Muggs did with his OP was to use a purposely inflammatory style of writing, pretty much guaranteeing a similar type of response from a large section of workers in this industry that also view themselves as professionals. He's a big boy and knew exactly what he was doing. Not the best way to enact change but a great way to create polarized and generally useless opinions.

I have been a climber in this profession for longer than most guys on this forum have been alive. There is no way in hell I would denigrate another climber for not doing it "my way". I would have given my eye teeth to have the knowledge and equipment that is so readily available today. If you plan to make this job a career you better be tough, but more than that, you need to be smart enough to know what to learn, what will help you, and then learn it. Nobody knows enough, and gravity doesn't give-a-shit.
 
bob foresti said:
LMAO!!... Great writing!... I particularly like: "Nobody moves, nobody gets hurt."
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That was what we described as a safety meeting.

But seriously, the first company I worked for was owned by someone who did timber cruising out in BC. The death toll was ridiculous. He described bodies coming out of the woods on a weekly basis. Hindsight being the exacting science it is, could easily identify the cause of the incident leading to death. Now, before all you old tree he-men get yer knickers in a knot, I will state that even then more of them came out alive and able to tell heroic stories than died or were maimed. Just as more people drive, fly, bathe, shower, get out of bed or generally get on with their days without being killed. That people go to work and die in decidedly preventable ways, due to their's or others' greed, stupidity, carelessness, cavalier attitude, complacency or just inattention, is what is at issue.
 
rico said:
Like many around here he walks the line between efficiency and safety, banging out the tree in front of him in a safe and efficient manner, so he can live to move on to the next tree.
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I added the bold lettering for emphasis


Rico,

You hit the nail on the head with your statement above and show an essential dichotomy all at once.

I don’t think there need be a line between safety and efficiency. I think both can be accomplished simultaneously. Especially if we agree accidents/ incidents are expensive (physically and monetarily) and in a great majority of the time, generally avoidable.

Tony
 
treehumper said:
That was what we described as a safety meeting.

But seriously, the first company I worked for was owned by someone who did timber cruising out in BC. The death toll was ridiculous. He described bodies coming out of the woods on a weekly basis. Hindsight being the exacting science it is, could easily identify the cause of the incident leading to death. Now, before all you old tree he-men get yer knickers in a knot, I will state that even then more of them came out alive and able to tell heroic stories than died or were maimed. Just as more people drive, fly, bathe, shower, get out of bed or generally get on with their days without being killed. That people go to work and die in decidedly preventable ways, due to their's or others' greed, stupidity, carelessness, cavalier attitude, complacency or just inattention, is what is at issue.
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This posts is exactly whats wrong with some of the discussions around here. People giving advise about things they know nothing about.

Have you actually ever work for a high ballin, high production logging outfit ,Treehumper, or did you just hear about it from your timber cruising friend? As someone who spent almost 14 years of his life doing just that, I can tell you we weren't removing dead bodies on a weekly basis. Pure Bullshit!

Was it your personal experience climbing hundreds of big conifers with a pair of spurs, a flip-line, and a climbing line hanging from your saddle that made you come to the conclusion it was an unsafe method, or was it something your instructor taught you in arborist school?

I would never think to tell one of the real-deal arborists around here how they should prune that beautiful heritage Oak or Maple tree.
Why? Because I don't know what the f***uck I'm taking about when it comes to pruning.
 
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Tony said:
I added the bold lettering for emphasis


Rico,

You hit the nail on the head with your statement above and show an essential dichotomy all at once.

I don’t think there need be a line between safety and efficiency. I think both can be accomplished simultaneously. Especially if we agree accidents/ incidents are expensive (physically and monetarily) and in a great majority of the time, generally avoidable.

Tony
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Really nice post Tony.
 
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