The Illusion of Safety: Safe vs. Safer vs. Safer-er

[treebing]

You honestly see nothing wrong with what he did on that Instagram? What about the rope being in-between his legs at the start of the flip? That is not a workplace move that I would want to see from an employee of mine.

I just verified that this video was taken on his own time at his own house. If that makes a difference. There is another post from today where he does the same jump about 20 times. Anyone who spends his saturday working on refining his out of tree backflips is okay in my book. Combined with skills with a camera and large social media following I think his Sherrill sponsorship is justified.

 

[treebilly]

from a few pages back, I believe JP’s crane swing was done in Columbus.
I don’t get into the flipping stuff but I do come down in Ironman fashion a lot. If not it’s a nice swing, unclip, and walk away
Gotta have some fun.

 

[DSMc]

I just verified that this video was taken on his own time at his own house. If that makes a difference. ..

Yes, that makes a difference and why you can't see that is just weird. I'm with Rico in that there is great potential for some type of tree climbing aerial display or competition venue. But moves like that have no place in a work situation. That is not like taking a swing or zipping out of a tree.

 

[treebing]

if you've spent all saturday practicing how to backflip out of a tree and on monday you back flip out of a tree at work to finish off the day.... how is that different from zipping out of the tree or doing a big swing for fun. we should be concentrating on people not wearing helmets, or spiking prunes, or not using their lanyards, topping trees, stripping out the middle of trees.

This guy uses the latest and greatest gear, he has a helmet, visor, ear muffs, chainsaw pants, uses his lanyard, makes solid cuts, his notches and his work positioning are solid, his rigging is advanced.... Come to think of it I don't honestly know why I am defending this guy I have never met. Or am I defending Sherrill for sponsoring him. I don't know. Either way, I like doing flips out of trees. I enjoy his posts on instagram. Flipping in trees is way way way down on the list of dangerous things I have done in my life.

that said, in my employee handbook, I have clearly written... "no practical jokes, roughhousing, or horseplay on the job site." don't tell my boss....

 

[DSMc]

Everything you mentioned above is work enhancing, even swinging from branch to branch and bailing out of the tree under control.

A backflip is for only one thing, showboating. Save it for after work.

 

[treehumper]

I agree with Kevin that there's so many other things out there to focus on where safety is concerned however, I get Steve and others points and it jibes with mine. My client's don't pay for showboating. For most it's entertaining to watch us out of the novelty of it. My goal is to get it done in a routine, efficient way to the point that it becomes boring to watch. If it's a rec climb or at home where it's on my nickel then its all good.

 

[Richard Mumford-yoyoman]

In the end, most of this sounds like marketing genius and it works, even if someone gets hurt. #redbull

 

[Frax]

Wow.... Here's the thing, climbing is not the work we are paid for, its tree care, whatever that may entail. Client's don't call us up and ask if we climb trees and how much it costs to do so. Climbing and all that goes into it is a means to access the work site.

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The climb is the just the last part of the commute to the job site.

 

[Frax]

In the end, most of this sounds like marketing genius and it works, even if someone gets hurt. #redbull

That's what our society is excited about the most. The flashiest stunts, the manliest bombast, the brightest bling, the biggest tits, starting with the highest office. I'm not even saying it's necessarily all crap, but that's the benchmark for fame and /or fortune. Committed self - promoters are the biggest winners.


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[Steve Connally]

Kevin, why do you think your employee handbook has that written? Do they intend for you to not have fun at work? Anyway, like I said before. To each their own. I respect your position on this. Maybe I need to follow him and see the everyday posts instead of the controversial ones all the time. Per haps I would see things differently. I stand on my principles. That's all I have in this life. What's important to me clearly isn't important to everyone, nor should it be. It's what makes the world go round. We had a guy who would hang on the strap off the ball every time he took the choker off the pic. He would only go about 2' off the ground and then drop. He thought it was fun. Didn't bother anyone else but it drove me insane. In my eyes it was unnecessary and unprofessional. What if OSHA was watching? Would they think it was funny. It drove me up the wall. I finally had to look away and not watch the operation because it distracted me so much. We all have our triggers. Mine may be silly to some but I own them. I hat people who wash dishes in dirty dish water. I drain and refill several times while doing dishes. Its soap not soup. I'm sure people think that's cray cray as well but it's me and I own it. I look away when others don't do the same.

So again in closing for my argument, in the big scheme of safety this is small stuff, but it's my contribution to this thread. Again I respect the fact you don't see things my way. Maybe with more exposure and working with you for a while I might see things your way. Hard to say. Unfortunately I am trapped in my own little micro-existence. I'm glad you like to follow Trevor. If he's lurking, because he is a member here, he should take that as a high form of flattery. You are quite notable as an industry guy.

Lastly, I would invite Trevor to please join in and share how he feels about what he does and how people view it, without being defensive, hostile, or non-constructive. Maybe after talking to him(virtually) I could totally feel differently about this. I'm sure people have some opinions of me. However you just cant know until you take the time to see where I'm coming from and what I'm made of as a person. Not many folks on the inter web have done that. You only know what you think I meant when I write stuff. So please Trevor, join it. This is totally civil and nobody is gonna get shitty with you.

 

[Steve Connally]

Frax, you might like this

 

[CutHighnLetFly]

Steve and Kevin you two are really interesting to carry out this dialog as you guys are on somewhat opposite sides of the spectrum.
Kevin you seem to have more acrobatic ability then many of us, and can back it up with ability to land your flips and stuff, not just jump dangerously into your ropes.
Steve like you said you rescue people who have failed attempts at an adrenaline rush, or overestimated there abilities greatly while doing something. That would leave me against risky business for the sake of fun. I'm more on your side with all that. I'm all set, too much riding on me being able to work the next day.
But I'm not the kind of guy to do daring stuff out of work either.
I'm like right in between you two though. I mean the Sherrill sponsorship with this guy and all. I do videos on facebook and Instagram trying to whore myself out as a sub. I choose to not use clips where there is questionable content. Using the go pro kept me honest with myself working and I shed some bad habits. But i would suck at getting people's attention to watch my stuff, I dont pump it out as fast as many people or on so many venues, I don't spend that time. It must be a lot of time too. It would be ideal of he wasn't flashing some dicey stuff or sitting pipe in hand talking tree climbing or rigging as a sponsored guy. But they chose him no? Did he seek out this sponsorship? That doesn't surprise me with sherrill.
But I'd show myself doing backups if I had gained the graceful ability before having as much financial responsibility as I do now.

But I've deviated further from the original post. Just really liked the discussion several of you were having about the climber guy.

 

[treebing]

yeah its been fun this discussion. and there is probably more to the story than I know. I wasn't aware of the pipe in hand post, that would annoy me if i were his sponsor, and I have nothing against weed. I would be more concerned about the cigarettes if I were Sherrill as well. no form of tobacco is allowed on my job sites ever. But, lots of tree guys out there relate to the smoking monster drink drinking type. That would be a valuable target demographic for a gear retailer.

I do not know Sherrill's arrangement with Travor. Is it more than just gear? thats all speculation. And the flips, I highly doubt he is out their doing flips all day. For me, I run around and jump and play, but it is actually pretty rare for the right scenario for doing a flip comes into play. If it comes Ill do it. I follow instagram but haven't figured out the posting thing. It has kind of stressed me out overtime Ive posted because I get all self conscious that people will pick me apart. I guess thats also why I respect Travors posts is how unabashed and prolific he is. I also like that he spends his saturdays practicing his moves.

As far as marketing goes Think, that when Travor posts a picture, 15,000 climbers see it. thats pretty amazing if your trying to sell something. Jeff Perry is the only other climber I know with that kind of reach. He has like 26,000 followers because he made a video topping a pine in california that went Viral. He doesn't post very often though.

 

[DSMc]

It's just a stunt that adds nothing to the job we do, which as you mentioned, is already dangerous enough.

 

[Steve Connally]

Rico running a saw in the tree is much safer. It’s what I’m a professional at. I’m no acrobat. I’ve spent a couple decades working on the art of using a saw aloft. It’s calculated, necessary, and a proven practice with regulations that govern it. I’m not trained, geared, regulated on doing flips. It’s not what I do as a profession. I’ll support pushing gear to its limits in an engineered environment. Take the latest Petzl info in sideloading the zigzag. I certainly wouldn’t have conducted that research myself aloft. I think comparing the risk of doing flips to using a saw in the tree is a far stretch to say the least. Shopping in the grocery store is dangerous. What if there is a refrigerant leak? It’s an asphyxiation risk. Now pushing my kid around doing hand stands in the cart is risky too but with the refer leak there’s engineering controls to prevent an accident. Just like a saw aloft. Engineering controls and proven techniques.

 

[Muggs]

I agree Kevin, stop thinking about it so much and just post your stuff. Here's one thing I know for sure, haters are the people who don't produce content. They can't produce anything and put it out for the world to see, because they are terrified of the criticism. They know how incredibly easy it would be for others to pick it apart, because that's what they spend their time doing, tearing apart everything that other people put out. It's like the music critic who can tear apart the newest album, but would never, ever have the courage to put out an album of their own stuff. There are only two sides to the world of content on social media (social media being a slang term for the current state of the internet): either you produce content, or you sit at home and criticize other people's content.

People who produce content and put it out for the world to see are not the ones sitting around criticizing other people's stuff. Because we don't have time. We're too busy actually doing things! You want to do backflips out of a tree? Cool bro. You want to do backflips out of a tree, and film it, and put it out there so that I can see it? Even better.

 

[Steve Connally]

Now the pipe in hand thing slipped under my radar. That’s enough to yank a sponsorship in my opinion for sure. Got Phelps kicked off the Olympic team at one point I believe. The mere appearance of drug use in conjunction with tree work is unacceptable. DO it on your own time privately.

 

[Steve Connally]

I agree Kevin, stop thinking about it so much and just post your stuff. Here's one thing I know for sure, haters are the people who don't produce content. They can't produce anything and put it out for the world to see, because they are terrified of the criticism. They know how incredibly easy it would be for others to pick it apart, because that's what they spend their time doing, tearing apart everything that other people put out. It's like the music critic who can tear apart the newest album, but would never, ever have the courage to put out an album of their own stuff. There are only two sides to the world of content on social media (social media being a slang term for the current state of the internet): either you produce content, or you sit at home and criticize other people's content.

People who produce content and put it out for the world to see are not the ones sitting around criticizing other people's stuff. Because we don't have time. We're too busy actually doing things! You want to do backflips out of a tree? Cool bro. You want to do backflips out of a tree, and film it, and put it out there so that I can see it? Even better.


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Hate is a strong word. Not the appropriate context for this conversation. Why can’t it just be my opinion? Why is it so easy to place those who disagree into the hate category. I don’t hate anything about Trevor. I disagree with him. To say I hate is so petty. I personally have content out there. And I do a lot of production under immense pressure to produce. If I don’t produce nobody makes money. I’d love to GoPro my work but it’s of no interest. It’s the same thing you do every day. Last thing I wanna see is another guy making the same old cuts with the same old techniques. It’s boring to me. I had posted a crane job a long time ago and took a shit storm of criticism. Much of it was nonproductive. What it motivates me to do was to seek training to improve myself. I became better, safer, and more productive. It helped me to be tarred and feathered by the “haters”. That’s the difference. I improved through it. I didn’t put up a defense and continue the same practices. Take a look at my small channel. I’m sure you can find some stuff to point out. Please do. I consider it as you helping me improve in my chosen craft. Like I said before my future videos will surely be blasted especially by the TreeMek “haters”. It’s fine. I might actually learn something from somebody. So please don’t refer to us as haters. It’s unbecoming to someone like you who eloquently expresses himself through his blog.

 

[Worthaug]

Kevin, the biggest misconception is that Sherrill is a “great” retailer. They are, in fact, terrible at what they do, except for swallowing up Mom and pop operations and releasing glossy catalogs.

 

[Frax]

When you work on a crew, safety is everybody's job. You need to work as a team: everybody looks out for everybody else. Does that make it a "safe" situation? No. Tree work is dangerous.

I strongly disagree. Tree work is not dangerous. It's hazardous. It's only dangerous if we let it be.
Combat soldiers have a legitimately dangerous job.

Your article is about the limits of risk mitigation and you're right. The safest action would be to not show up. We keep our job from being dangerous by mitigating as many hazards as we can. I think it's pretty easy to define the cutoff. Just follow the "Zee". It's fairly well thought out.

I like to mitigate more than the minimum that would keep me from dying, or worse if I mess up or a hidden hazard presents itself. I'm a bit of a worrywort , perhaps.

Using your own example, I would not climb a tree just with spikes and a lanyard, even though I can do it. It isn't safe (in general circumstances). If I have to pass a limb, I would either need to cut it off or unclip and go around. Neither choice is considered minimumly acceptable by industry designed standards. Just because a lanyard is safer than climbing by gripping with your hands, doesn't mean it's safe.




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