Contract climbers

RyanCafferky

Been here a while
After seeing a few articles in the TCI magazine that have negative slants towards contract climbers I would like to bring up this topic on this forum to get opinions from other individuals in the industry.

I have been in the industry since 1997 and after many years of climbing for other companies in the Portland area decided to start my own business and specialize in contract climbing. I am trying to be the best contract climber I can be and to turn the repuation of contract climbers from the hired gun who asks for cash at the end of the day, to a respectable part of our trade. I am fully licensed, bonded, and insured in the state I work in, I drive my own vehicle to jobs, use only my saws, rigging gear, and ropes, and I work for many different customers a year. I have a long list of clients who gladly pay my fees and use my services on a regular basis. I use my time working with these companies to focus on teaching safe work practices, demonstrating new techniques, and tactfully reminding company owners and employees of safety violations I am seeing while at the same time keeping a very high level of production.

I feel that what I am doing is providing a service to tree companies that they don't or can't get from their employees. Training an employee to the level I am at takes years of investment or paying me to work as an employee would be tremendously expensive. Also, I refuse to be an employee of a tree service because no company I've worked for can keep me interested with challenging work, can tolerate my needs for extensive time off, and I like working with different crews and having freedom to choose when and where I work. Even though it would likely be more profitable, I don't want to become a full service tree service because I do not want the headache of employees and the responsibility that running a company with a long list of clients requires.

In the most recent TCI article the topic was about the IRS finding that most people that were claiming to be sub contractors were actually employees. As someone who is paying my own taxes, does work for multiple clients a year, and does jobs for a client without them telling me how to do it, I feel like I am an independant contractor. Anyone care to argue this point or tell me what I might be missing?

What I feel really drives the negative attitude towards people that are doing what I am doing in a legitimate way, is that it takes some level of control away from the company owners and puts it in the hands of specialists. But what it always comes down to in this country is following the money. Who is missing out on money when you use a contract climber? The workers compensation companies aren't getting their important $0.15 to $0.50 on the dollar that an employee would be paid, and the states aren't getting their unemployment tax.

My company is a member of TCIA and I want to support this organization but it bothers me to repeatedly see articles that are attacking what I do for work and what I see as a legitimate and important part of our industry.
 
Worker's comp is 56% here. Assuming I had it, that would translate to over $300/day in Worker's Comp on my contract climber assuming.

Tax law is bogus.
 
So you seriously feel that no tree company can employ a climber who is as good as you ?
Thats a pretty big ego your packing(dont be all offended)?
Your a tree climber who wants all the good parts of the job and none of the bad, and if that works out for you, I think its fine.
I think there is a place in the industry for competent climbers willing to tackle the real nasties, only problem is every tree you ever do is likely to be a real nasty.
Unless maybe the companies around you just cant hire decent climbers?
Where I live there are a lot of good climbers.

So I have no ill feelings towards 'hired guns', we have used them in the past.
There are trees that I have not wanted to climb and I know guys who will climb damn near anything for 50$hr.
Their skillsets are not really any higher than mine, they just have a higher tolerance for certain aspects of the job I dont really enjoy anymore.
Hand bombing over obstacles, and chunking down really large spars, not something I ever really enjoyed. Atm we employ a climber who is gangbusters on big spars, he is hot too climb anything at all, and very skilled.
I prefer the rope work, multi stem takedowns, you know the fun stuff.
All kinds of industries and commerce use 'hired guns'(just to use a term), so I dont know what the TCIA is on about, its vertainly not like your taking the money overseas, your supporting a family and paying taxes ?
Dont see the problem
 
I never said a company couldn't find someone as good as me or that employees like me are impossible to find. What I am saying is that people with my skill set take years to train and are expensive to keep on staff. This is especially true for small companies who don't always need a highly skilled climber for the type of work that they specialize in or regularly do.

As a human male, I obviously and admittedly have an ego and I'm not offended by the suggestion that this is the case.

Some companies only use me for really nasty work and some bring me in for easy removals and pruning because they want higher production than they can do with their staff. I try and just limit how many days I say "yes" to in a given amount of time to avoid burnout. Especially if I am doing big nasty removals.
 
I don't think that article was necessarily pointed at what you do. As I understand it, a subcontractor must provide a service that the contracting company does not or can not. So if you are that good then I don't see anything wrong with that.

I have a very very small tree service with partner and when we first started out we did a little subcontracting as climbers but quickly found that these other companies who seemed very legitimate actually were very unprofessional "tree cutters" with little or no regard for safety or best practices.
 
You go Ryan! Do your thing, it's not easy to change or start a movement... Not too sure on the whole IRS deal but keep working safe with no damage and your good to go. Charge top dollar because there is no room for error, taking down trees safely near obsticals is something special.

It would be interesting to read the article...
 
I know what you are saying Ryan. First of all, Like JT said, the article was not talking about what you are doing but at the employers who just call someone who they clearly treat as an employee, a sub-contractor to avoid certain taxes.

Secondly, from how you describe yourself I would assume that for most companies, you probably can offer some things that their climbers are missing and especially if you are highly self-motivated toward safe work practices. I am very interested in having climbers like yourself come and work with us yearly. If nothing else, for fresh perspective. I think the employee relationship can create a dependency that can be a hindrance to some employees as small employers struggle to provide the time and money for certifications and formal training and the employees only pursue what is necessary. A contract climber, such as yourself, is normally very driven. I think this industry will always NEED very good contract climbers.

Finally, the way my accountant explains it, if a company is audited, everyone on the payroll is assumed to be an employee and the company is forced to prove otherwise. There is a list of about twenty qualifiers for sub-contractor status (it sounds like you are within most of them). I don't know that it would ever effect you, but it would be wise if the companies you work with, sign a Sub-contractor agreement with you.

I'm with Bix... Carry on
 
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I don't think that article was necessarily pointed at what you do. As I understand it, a subcontractor must provide a service that the contracting company does not or can not. So if you are that good then I don't see anything wrong with that.

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In the state of Oregon you can legally have two contractors on the same job site performing the same type of work. So if Company A is doing tree work they can bring me in as Company B with no violation. If we bring in a third contract climber on the same job being Company C then we have violated the law.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a very very small tree service with partner and when we first started out we did a little subcontracting as climbers but quickly found that these other companies who seemed very legitimate actually were very unprofessional "tree cutters" with little or no regard for safety or best practices.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm usually pretty picky about who I work for but sometimes the "tree cutters" get really fun (challenging) jobs I can't turn down.
 
My opinion...
Wow, wish I had a guy like that around me for when I have too much volume of work at one time.

You fit the spirit of sub-contractor, and at least most of the important letter of the law rules. You may want to find out exactly what the IRS says is the definition of an employee and what it takes to fit the definition of a sub. Perhaps there is a small thing or two you need to tweak. Like it may make a material difference that you hand me a piece of paper at the beginning of a job that outlines what it is to be a sub and that I tell you what I want as a result, and you produce it, without my further input. After meeting the letter of the law “rules” of being a sub, focus your attention on what a great service you provide.

If you ever have an interest in making additional money in another way AND meeting more of your goal to bring respectability etc. to the title contract climber, consider documenting what you do/have done, and putting it in a kit/binder. If it were easy to do/follow, I think a lot more people would become legitimate contract climbers. There is a guy who teaches marketing and he shows people how maybe you make $90K a year at what you do but if you develop a really good system and you show others how to follow a template and get the same result, you make an additional X at that.

Wow, wish I had a guy like that near me.
 
Side by side articles too. I noticed that also . They were also talking about crane subs , stump subs, many job sites and not just trees have more subs than a hoagie shop . Think of it this way so that you don't get too upset , the guys who wrote those two articles for tcia were subbing too . The money trail never ends , follow one dollar bill around all day and watch how many times it's taxed . Read the articles again , flush the toilet , wash your hands and go do what you do !
 
Without having read the article, it sounds like they are talking about an issue that really came to the forefront in the 90s when companies downsized to reduce payroll then contracted those same people as self-employed independent contractors. It was a defacto tax dodge by the employer that eventually didn't meet the litmus test the IRS and Revenue Canada apply to determine if someone is actually an independent contractor. What transpired for many was a whopping big tax bill and the owing of employer contributions for social security, unemployment insurance and worker's comp. For the independent often it meant they were denied deductions that they had made against their income and had to pay additional taxes.

Most of the time, there is a grace period of a couple years where an IC is allowed to have one major client but after that the income should be coming from several sources.

Ryan, you sound like you are running a legitimate subcontracting business. I wouldn't worry about what the article is saying.
 
Just a thought... If we as people working in the tree service industry don't like the powers in charges' INTERPRETATION ( because when you get down to it that is all it is--- someone's interpretation of a law which is a bunch of peoples interpretation of how something should be for everyone else) then we should work to get their interpretation changed. This is where an outfit like TCIA should stand up with us and lend a helping hand in getting it changed if that is the course that should be taken.

Belonging to TCIA is not cheap. You should get some more for your money in situations like this.

And I do see a lot of validity with Riggs views. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution......
 
i agree with your work method and respect teaching the industry standards any and all employers who dont love you will hate you the slanderers are all buisiness owners who have the headaches you choose not to have but ask yourself are you that good.. all of us eventually have to play by the rules your climbing days are numbered all the headaches are waiting......................................................................................
 
Been a full time sub-contractor since '94 . Raised a family doing it , dot your I's and cross your T's . No friday paychecks ( unless you write yourself one) No money back at tax time ( pay up ) It'a not a one way street either , the company hiring you better be legit too . 1099's will coming flying in around Febuary like a hurricane .
Besides this article and X and Bix tackling the cover the article at the end by Chad Perry , " what i had forgotten about trees " was good stuff ,I'll just add that when we touch a tree now we're all paying . Everybody.
 
There is a list of about twenty qualifiers for sub-contractor status--I give this to all my subs; very easy to follow.

Why don't you write an article about your business? It could be as easy as writing a diary and snapping a few pics. TCIA will pay for printable feature articles; check their website.
 
"Why don't you write an article about your business? It could be as easy as writing a diary and snapping a few pics. TCIA will pay for printable feature articles;"

Thats great advice Guy . Who wants a hundred dollars to tell you how you do things ? Been there done that . How about you Guy ? Hired you , payed you , took you to dinner . Than you insulted me with out any knowledge of what you were talking about . Stick to your science , as far as sub- contracting goes , your pace won't make most people money , because who you are and what you know you make money . I subbed you out because I didn't want my new neighbors to know what I do . Your a smart man Guy , know alot about trees , but you are not a profitable sub contract climber . Face it , what Ryan is saying is that there is a need for large tree specialists , HIT MEN , who do the job with no know other worries but getting paid . Guy what you did at that Hertford court house was a border like crime , most subs don't operate like that , shame on you and than you insult me ! I'll write an article about that job and send it to TCIA and they can keep the money . I work WITH people not AGAINST them ! Stick to your bugs detective BS my friend ! Serve
 
I would definitely not think of Ryan Cafferky as a HIT MAN who will do the job without any other worries than getting paid. He is a very conscientious arborist and his expertise and input is highly sought after--not because he is a hit man who will do any job with his mouth shut--but because he opens his mouth and discusses how things are to be done.

I think Ryan is speaking here against a perception that "contract climbers" are little more than shady competitors to legitimate tree services or, worse, are the dubious working arrangement that tree services often use to avoid paying taxes on employees. True, that occurs, but it shouldn't spoil the perception of what contract climbers are and can be for the industry.

Truth is that with proper licensing and insurance, an expert climber can take control of their own labour power and offer a superior service. Rather than be an employee in perpetuity or become an overburdened bid machine/tree care owner, the role of the contract climber offers all of the great things that a climber really wants: independence, work on your own terms, decent living.

We have had Ryan climb for us from time to time for a few years now, but when we do it is something that is challenging, interesting, and the crew gets a lot out of it. While it is not something we can afford on a daily basis, contract climbers (especially expert climbers) have their place. There is something great about showing up to the job and Ryan has already figured out the rigging plan 15 minutes ago!

Those contemplating becoming a contract climber should consider that employers should have no tolerance for anything less than expert qualifications in contract climbers. If you are not there yet, pay your dues in the employ of a good tree service and cultivate the skills, licensing and insurance, before "going it alone".
 
seriously ? are you the Elephant or the hunters ? Ryan doesn't want to get paid , he wants you to look good . I'm from Earth , One Sun one Moon , where you coming from Ward ? talk about " going it alone " Outer Space Tree Service , hiring ?
 

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