Which cut to rig down a spar?

Aaron Cipolletti said:
So your making front kerf in direction logs to fall half way through diameter then leaving thin strap and plunging in ,coming in completely even with front cut going out the back ? And just having ground help with tag line pop them off or you pop them off pushing yourself ? Either way is your saw is on harness? I like trying to figure out other styles if you can't tell and like to have a real good understanding, to see the advantages and limitations of different ways to approach certain scenarios . I feel many have there time and place . Just figuring out what and when makes for monotony breaker I like trying new things as long as its for the right reasons like safety of course and productivity/ fatigue reduction. Which leads back to safety I think !
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The wood never moves significantly until the saw is on harness. To be clear, the wood is completely cut. No snap cut, it's just sitting on top of saw dust from the first cut, but still tied and often pre-tentioned. If it's big enough to need a tagline, I usually will just go ahead and notch. By pushing the wood off myself, I don't have an eager groundie pulling when I explicitly said not to....

Watch a couple of youtube videos of notched pieces being rigged down traditionally and you'll see that wood always arcs significantly away from the tree (usually terminating with a slap down below). If you watch some pieces being pushed off you'll see they stay much closer to the tree on the way down (less slap). Reg Coates has a Beech tree removal you can see this very clearly on starting around the 5:20 mark. I'm not talking about pushing pieces this big by hand, but you could see that if rigging was a must, this method would work there as well. With a little practice, you can actually dump the piece off the side on purpose so that an underhanded swing is initiated and you get no slap on the spar below.
 
Keeth said:
The wood never moves significantly until the saw is on harness. To be clear, the wood is completely cut. No snap cut, it's just sitting on top of saw dust from the first cut, but still tied and often pre-tentioned. If it's big enough to need a tagline, I usually will just go ahead and notch. By pushing the wood off myself, I don't have an eager groundie pulling when I explicitly said not to....

Watch a couple of youtube videos of notched pieces being rigged down traditionally and you'll see that wood always arcs significantly away from the tree (usually terminating with a slap down below). If you watch some pieces being pushed off you'll see they stay much closer to the tree on the way down (less slap). Reg Coates has a Beech tree removal you can see this very clearly on starting around the 5:20 mark. I'm not talking about pushing pieces this big by hand, but you could see that if rigging was a must, this method would work there as well. With a little practice, you can actually dump the piece off the side on purpose so that an underhanded swing is initiated and you get no slap on the spar below.
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I'm not gonna watch the reg vid just now,but I sure will, it sounds a bit diff to me in what your actually doing with the chainsaw in your hands from each post. I understand now . Am dense maybe I is like oak.:loco: Your just kinda cutting through from two different sides and pushing the log off the spar all graceful as you can like ..slowly work it to the edge and and bybye? The lubrication was the sawdust hahaa...
 
I see no problem with the way he is talking about, as long as the stem is relatively straight up and down. I like the notch. But if I were to do it your way, I would only cut, say 10% on your first front cut, tie it up, then come in from the back just a little higher (use a pocket wedge of some sort so it doesn't sit back on your saw), pull your saw away...then push it onto the block.

Pieces with hard leans I would stay away from that method completely though. Just my thoughts.
 
MikePowers321 said:
I see no problem with the way he is talking about, as long as the stem is relatively straight up and down. I like the notch. But if I were to do it your way, I would only cut, say 10% on your first front cut, tie it up, then come in from the back just a little higher (use a pocket wedge of some sort so it doesn't sit back on your saw), pull your saw away...then push it onto the block.

Pieces with hard leans I would stay away from that method completely though. Just my thoughts.
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That sums up my thoughts as well. I would use it in some situations.
 
Notch or snap cut. I don't think u need a notch every time, but why not make a close snap cut. Say 10% on the lower cut( direction of fall) and 90% on the back cut. If the piece is small enough it will still give u the ability to direct the fall by hand. It is the same amount of cutting but it gives u much more safety and controll. Why mess around with pushing on the piece(which is free to fall in any direction) to get ur bar out?
 
I think he's talking about cutting with the top of the bar. I believe I remember Mark Chisolm mentioning in an article that he does that when finishing a stump cut. Instead of the chips blasting out of the cut they get bound up in the kerf in effect holding the piece level which keeps the saw from getting pinched.

When my brain is not worn out like it is right now I'll re-read what you've written Keeth and try it where there's no obstacles. I'm still not quite sure where it'd be beneficial except that maybe there's not as much drop into the block. With 20 years of rigging under your belt I'm not going to ignore something you feel is significant.
 
The only other thing I can add is I try to cut with the top of the bar on big cuts only when necessary. Much rather use the dogs and leverage.
 
TreeLogic said:
Keeth, you sound like you know your stuff. If it works for you then have at it brother. My main concern is the potential for lack of directional control on larger stuff, and that someone not as experienced as you on this forum may misunderstand or hurt themselves. (y)
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I agree. I'm 65 and not as strong as I used to be. But I see no problem with skipping the notch if you're sure you can tip the section. Pat, who works with me, is 31, and strong like bull. He cuts some quite heavy sections, with just one cut, straight through. A tip for doing that is to back chain as the kerf is closing, which makes room for the bar, thus avoiding the pinch.
As far as using a tag line, heck, when free dropping log lengths up to maybe 17 feet, I seldom use a tag line, just make a deep face, which undermines the center of gravity, and the log tips on its own.
 
Treetopflyer said:
I'm not gonna watch the reg vid just now,but I sure will, it sounds a bit diff to me in what your actually doing with the chainsaw in your hands from each post. I understand now . Am dense maybe I is like oak.:loco: Your just kinda cutting through from two different sides and pushing the log off the spar all graceful as you can like ..slowly work it to the edge and and bybye? The lubrication was the sawdust hahaa...
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I watched the reg vid it, I liked it , I thought you were doing something different at first.. but I think it matched my above statements? . My question now would be other than dog leverage and the ease and safety of cutting on the pulling side of chain T.L.pointed out ..why would you not just cut the whole way through with top of bar to keep kerf pinch with saw dust if your aligning the cuts anyways or just cut through the back putting wedge in to stop bar pinch? Taking a long bar out of a cut attached to a big saw and repositioning with the body and saw to come in from the other side to me just doesn't add up .
Keeth said:
Most of the time I never even pull the saw out of the kerf, but transition to a plunge cut. I guess that's another can of worms all together.:D
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Im opening that can now . What is this cut , another fancy way to say your just cutting right through ?
 
Treetopflyer said:
..why would you not just cut the whole way through with top of bar to keep kerf pinch with saw dust if your aligning the cuts anyways or just cut through the back putting wedge in to stop bar pinch? Taking a long bar out of a cut attached to a big saw and repositioning with the body and saw to come in from the other side to me just doesn't add up .

Im opening that can now . What is this cut , another fancy way to say your just cutting right through ?
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You are correct. That is mostly what I do.

The saw sits in the kerf while I finish tying. I then keep cutting with the top of the bar until the 5/8 point then back the saw out a little. The 'plunge' occurs when I pull the saw out a little while still cutting in order to leave a small bit of holding wood inside. The finish cut is always with the bar inside of the wood to avoid kickback using the dogs for leverage like TL mentioned. It's actually the same cut I use for the crane most of the time.
 
Keeth said:
You are correct. That is mostly what I do.

The saw sits in the kerf while I finish tying. I then keep cutting with the top of the bar until the 5/8 point then back the saw out a little. The 'plunge' occurs when I pull the saw out a little while still cutting in order to leave a small bit of holding wood inside. The finish cut is always with the bar inside of the wood to avoid kickback using the dogs for leverage like TL mentioned. It's actually the same cut I use for the crane most of the time.
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Seems like you would leave yourself open a bit to kickback transfering the bar like that . Were talking spar work here right.. big saws with longer bars and pulling the saw out a little while still cutting to start plundging through seems like the point of possible mishap .. I'm sure you have it down pat ,but with pulling and pushing forces created by big saws I wouldn't waste my time with that cut personally .
 
I can visualize it ..if you rotate your body far enough you could go back in while keeping bar resting in edge of kerf with out cutting then plunge back in when your bodies on better side of bar for control..useing the tree to your advantage by holding the saw until your reset body..I would definitely not recommend that cut And anyone who doesn't seriously understand chainsaw forces ..that's a Willie go round cut there.
Look out now!
 
Skimmed the thread. Was the DK Slider mentioned? http://www.wesspur.com/knives-axes/felling-wedges.html.

A dowel rod as a roller. There was the French company making the rollotube, or named something like it.

This will allow you to dog in and roll, rather than back chaining.

If you dog in and cut most of the way through, slap in two wedges parellel to the bar, and keep cutting, the piece won't bind, then you can pull out at the end of the cut, hang your saw, and slide the piece of wood on the wedges.
 
You guys are making it too complicated. Today, I removed two dead Doug-firs...easy 130-140 footers. At first, as I had a lot of room, I was making 3/4 or more deep faces, undermining the COG, and cutting 10-12 footers. Takes a while to make such a big and deep face. So then I switched to cutting 4-5 footers, by now the cuts were close to 24", so had some weight. But, as I described above, I make just one cut straight through, but, as the kerf closes, I back chain to make a pocket to keep the bar from pinching. The sections were relatively light, so easy to tip over manually...prolly only weighing 250-400 lb.
Dan Kraus's new DK Slider tool is cool (and I'll be getting one--or two).... as was Reg's Block Driver....for heavy sections which are difficult to tip. For those, I have simply used a couple dowels (broken rake handles work fine) pick up section with a 12" wedge, or a lever bar of some sort. Slide dowel in, one is OK, 2 is better. I first used the technique many years ago to gain a lot of lateral distance as I was removing a tree inside a deck, with a railing. Works a charm!
 
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Roger_Barnett said:
Takes a while to make such a big and deep face. So then I switched to cutting 4-5 footers, by now the cuts were close to 24", so had some weight. But, as I described above, I make just one cut straight through, but, as the kerf closes, I back chain to make a pocket to keep the bar from pinching. The sections were relatively light, so easy to tip over manually...prolly only weighing 250-400 lb.
Dan Kraus's new DK Slider tool is cool (and I'll be getting one--or two).... as was Reg's Block Driver....for heavy sections which are difficult to tip. For those, I have simply used a couple dowels (broken rake handles work fine) pick up section with a 12" wedge, or a lever bar of some sort. Slide dowel in, one is OK, 2 is better. I first used the technique many years ago to gain a lot of lateral distance as I was removing a tree inside a deck, with a railing. Works a charm!
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I've used suckers or small twigs I've collected during the removal in a similar fashion. I do the same thing on a stump cut so as not to have to back chain. However, the context of this discussion is still rigging, not bombing. There's a rope on the other side, that's why no straight through cut.

The cut I'm describing doesn't take much effort if your saw is sharp. I'll try to get a video up so you can see. I have the perfect Red Oak to demonstrate with. Although it doesn't need any rigging it's the perfect size and has good light.
 
I like what's been said. When I can get away with not using a notch, I undercut the block side 6"-12" below the back cut. That way when i do the back cut, it acts like a rip cut but it will not peel my tie -ins out. (It also gives the rigging line some room from the saw.)
 
southsoundtree said:
You can start on the side of the trunk above the block, sink your bar deep enough, tie up the piece, cut through, and push off.
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That's the idea.

Sorry I haven't taken a video of the cut yet. The weather hasn't been very cooperative.

I hope to get it done this week...
 
Finally got some footage of the cut. We had 3 Poplar trees to remove and though they were not big, it provided an opportunity to get some video. Another climber wanted to see how I was doing it, so he climbed the last tree slated for removal and watched.

(raw footage, about 3 min.)
 
Seems like it could go any way it wants? For the lenght that it is, that would make me a little uneasy. If it were a couple few foot lump, or was sort of half spear cut, sure. Not trying to sound smug, but am i missing something about the cut?
Thanks!
-maher
 
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