U-SAVER ready for prime time?

oldfart

oldfart

Participating member
Location
Asheville, NC
Well, *gulp* I'm not sure I'm ready for my first post, or the U-SAVER is ready for prime time on the Buzz, but here goes ...


The U-SAVER is an idea for a false crotch system that gives you

-- a choking tie-in on a stem
-- a hanging tie-in on a branch
-- a sliding tie-in on an access line

It can do rings or pulley or both.

It can (depending on configuration) be

-- retrieved from the ground
-- soft retrieved from the ground
-- double-ended retrieved from the ground
-- set from the ground


It can be home built for less than $40 in basic configurations, or pimped out to about $125.


A video (in six pieces) starts at
U-SAVER V2, Part 1/6 .

This is an idea, not a product and it still needs a lot of help. I welcome your experience and feedback. But go easy on a newbie.
 
Tom,
Thank you for taking the time to make the videos. You do a great job explaning the different configurations.

I remember the "first" version of the U-saver you posted awhile back. It's come along way to a very versitile piece of equipment.

I agree, A DMM large thimble would just be Amazing!

Thanks again
 
Is there any interest in special ordering a ring for the U-SAVER? I'm getting a quote for a special order rigging ring as follows:

1/2" x 2.5" id
Titanium, mirror polish


These rings would be machined from block Grade 5 titanium and then polished to a mirror finish. I'm getting the technical specs for for MBS (to deformation) and ultimate failure strength. I will post the info when available.

But, in simple terms, these rings would be about three (3)times stronger than the same cross section of stainless steel and they would weigh about half as much. Their tollerance to impulse loads would be better than stainless.

This company allready makes very similar rings for sailing rigging. Only this specific sizing would be "new" for them.

Don't know pricing yet but I'm expecting $50-$100 in prototype quantities. I'm probably going to order several for myself and for destructive testing.

Questions:
Do you have any interest in participating the the prototype order? I would pass everything through at direct cost.

Can anyone out there do the do (or suggest) the destructive testing on the ring?


This company currently has no presence in the "rope access" industries but, in the past, they've done similar "foothold" thinking to get titanium into industries that only have a mentality/experience for steel. Think bicycles. Think hammers.

Post here if you're interested and give me a way to contact you.


Tom
 
Titanium sure does have some specs that make it interesting.

Something that I've learned from talking with climbing gear engineers like Denny Morehouse is that having materials that are ductile. Being able to stretch rather than fracture under load is desirable. The alloys that are used for biners embrace this. Having a piece of gear that is strong but brittle would not be suitable for climbing applications.

Marine engineering, especially America's cup category, is right up their with aerospace engineering. Their demands may be a bit different than ours.

If I were going to follow this path I would contact ISC or DMM, etc. and get a proven ring. Arbos would have something that looks and feels familiar. Over-engineering might not pay off.

Good luck!
 
Thanks, Tom. You're absolutely right and the Gr5 Ti is specifically good in the area of stretch, not fracture suddenly. Much better than steel, in fact.

And I agree that overengineering doesn't get you anything except in this case the simplest strucure possible is the ring shape, not a hollowed thimble or some other engineered structure.

Of course it's more expensive and, usually engineers thin down the structure to take advantage of the strength. But in the case of the U-Saver, we need the 1/2" cross section to accomodate running rope. So the ring will turn out to be ridiculously strong. But even so, it'll be half the weight(!) All in, that would put the U-SAVER at exactly the same weight at the PulleySAVER (lighter Pinto, lighter cordage, ring is heavier but not the beast out of steel).
 
I like what I'm seeing in the u-saver. I just ordered some pieces and will be making one pretty soon. Thank you for sharing your ideas!

I've already been planing a hand build a false crotch for DdRT climbs and N-rig redirects (while on SRT) with a revolver 'biner and a ring on either end with a micro pulley and 'biner on a prusik. It will be interesting to see which one gets used more when they are both in hand.
 
It dawned on me that none of the U-SAVER vids show my most preferred way to set a basket configuration over a branch. I'm not doing another one now -- too cold (I know ontarioclimber is calling me a pus_y). Anyway, here it is ...


Essentially, this is a simplified "Method 2" in the TC Companion for setting a friction saver.

1. Hit your branch, get the bag and pass it through the large ring. Clip a big biner on the bag.
2. Run the climbing line through the pulley (or rings); retain both ends.
3. Start pulling the U-SAVER up. As it leaves, attach the retrieval snap to the line above your hitch.
4. Flip the large ring over the branch. Depending on how much climbing line you are lifting, you may have to pull more over the branch until the weight balances and you can lower the bag.
5. Detach the bag and biner, attach the lead climbing eye. Don't worry about the "locking up" warning -- the retrieval snap thakes care of everything.
6. Pull the climbing eye up through the large ring and back to you. Pull both ends to square up the U-S over the branch. Done.


With this method, the U-S ascends head first, the flip is cleaner, you can set the retreival snap on the ground and, if anything goes wrong, you have double-ended control with both the throw line and the climbing line. I prefer it for any in-tree advances (if I can't use the PDQ with no throwline). The only disadvatage is for a very long toss, you are pulling up a lot of doubled climbing line. Strong throwline! Gloves! Or go back to "Method 1".
 
About a month ago, I posted that I was preparing an arborist ring in titanium for the U-SAVER. That work is done and you can see the product description and engineering drawings here:


U-SAVER RING in Titanium

(If your browser supports it, there is an animated 3D phto of the ring at the end of this linked document.)

This is a rigging ring, 1/2" x 2.5" ID x 3.5" OD. It is machined from block Grade 5 titanium and then polished to a mirror finish. In simple terms, I expect this piece to be roughly 3x stronger than steel and half the weight. Gr 5 ti is ductile, not brittle. It should be very substantially better with impact loading than stainless steel.

My plan is to order three (3) of these, two (2) for my own use and one (1) for destructive testing. I will post the testing results here.

My cost for this first order is $42.94 per ring. I can order more, delivered together to me. If you would like to be part of this first order, I will add your quantity at my cost ($42.94/ring) and I'll ship it on to you (in the US) free. Contact me at tom@hoffmann.net before Feb 15, 2012.

This could be the start of Titanium in Trees ... !

Regards,
OF
 
Nice job with the ring, Tom. I loooove that shiny finish! Your energy and enthusiasm is great to see. Keep it up, and have fun climbing.
 
Arg......finally got around to doing some splicing and decided to assemble my U-S....and realized that I forgot to order the freakin' wichard shackle. Then I remembered why, I didn't know what size to order. What size did you use Tom?
 
I also use arbormaster. I ordered the rigging ring from Luke, but the more I look at it, the closer I am to ordering a different ring. I'm considering that titanium ring, but just in case I can't justify the extra expense, which west marine ring did you use?
 
hey JTree,

I tried that 3" ring and it doesn't work. ID is too big to properly resist the prussik and the pulley. I recommend against it.

I'm using the 2.5" ID stainless steel O-ring from West Marine, stock number WM 534206. Their website is here:


WM O-Ring

This item is carried in all their stores near me.

I'm sure you know that this is not a "marked" or "certified" item. But it's plenty strong and this is a high-quality line of marine rigging hardware. It's not like you're buying a dog snap at Dollartree.

I am a pus*y when it comes to safety. I was intimidated with the failure/recall stories I've read about. So now I am proof testing everything I climb with to 1000#. All my splices. Even brand new biners from DMM. Everything. I set up and calibrated a rig with my tractor so I can do it quicker than I can tell about it.

I could test everything except my saddle, so I sent it back to Buck for a personal inspection. It was less than a year old.

Did I mention pus*y?? I just re-designed my SRT ground anchor because I wanted "doubled-up" redundancy.

Anyway, I've purchased four of these rings from different stores at different times. I proofed them and they are fine for me. I am climbing on them routinely. But I'm not a professional and this is only my choice. It's my trees and my as*. You need to make a decision for yourself, if you can.

Regarding the titanium ring, I may have some bad news coming. My vendor is going through a massive re-do of an extremely sophisticated website. They have told me that the number their site gave me is wrong. I'm expecting the cost to go up, not down. When I know something, I'll post but if it's too much, I'll throw in the towel on this idea.

Sorry this was so long. Go for it!
OF
 
That's a bummer about the ring I bought, but A) I'll find a use for it sooner or latter, I always do and B) I'm glad I got the skinny sooner rather than latter.

Double bummer regarding the titanium ring, but that is the nature of the beast when you get in to products that few are truly interested in. Limited runs and limited production and sometimes poor communication.

If being safe is being a p*ssy, then I deserve the label as much as you do. My question is: Is there such thing as being too safe doing hazardous work? I found your video detailing your basal tie set up before you referenced it here and was immediately interested. I'll make one when I get the time. I'm no longer a full time professional, but I'm headed that way as quickly as I can. When I was learning the basics, I would have no fewer than 3 people inspect my knots before I'd trust my life to them, and I'd never trust a knot tied by anyone other than myself. The company I used to work for would only supply safety equipment/climbing gear to cover the bare ansi essentials, which prompted me to start spending my own money to be safer. I've seen folks seriously injured and dozens of close calls. I'll do whatever I can to keep that from happening to me. In short, you ain't got to justify yourself to me because you are preaching to the chior.

The funny thing is: I love climbing because I am afraid of heights. This might seem strange, but it doesn't to me. I get bored very quickly working most crafts (such as my current day job), but I've never been simultaneously bored and scared.

Thank you for your time. I know it took a while to A)come up with the ideas you've shared, B)make/post videos, and now C) answer my questions. It is appreciated.
 
I have disappointing news. Earlier I posted engineering drawings for a U-SAVER ring to be made from titanium. At the time, I thought these rings could be available for $42.94. Not true. Cost will be $83.19 each PLUS another $48.95 for each order lot to cover duties and shipping.

In my judgement, this is too much a premium over the steel ring (at $13.49 ea delivered in store).

The cost is high because of the effort and waste to machine the ring from a solid block of titanium. I did explore an alternative: doing it as a precision investment casting. Tooling would cost $800-$1000 and the recuring cost would drop to about $60 ea. The casting could still produce the polished smooth surface to support running rope ( <u>very</u> important for many U-SAVER configurations) but the cost is still too much, IMHO.

After all, the ring is 7.4 oz in steel and 4.7 oz in titanium. If you were climbing like Lance Armstrong, maybe. Not me.

The real answer is a hollow ring big enough to pass the pinto and grooved for 10mm rope. This design could be engineered to deliver climb spec strength by using the strength of the eye splice holding the ring. I would prefer the ring to be thinned out to deform in a controlled manner at approximately 1000 pounds load, so long as the entire system delivers the 5400 climb spec. The resultant hardware would be lighter, cheaper and give fine daily performance but might have to be replaced after the dynamic loading of a fall. But that's going to take serious engineering, testing and certification. I can't do it in my basement ... !

Not to end on such a downer, I do have to say that I've slowly gotten used to the clunky big ring. The utility makes up for the weight. Many people think of the U-SAVER as a PULLEYSAVER that doesn't get stuck in tension lock. That's understandable, given the physical appearance. But the real utility of the U-SAVER is the ability to set it remotely. It's more like an AFS that can do choking on a stem. And a pulley. And a Secret Weapon.

So much for the age of titanium in trees :-(
My apologies to those that made inquiry on this venture.

OF
 
What about titanium rod formed in a ring and welded? A sailmaker gave me a titanium ring built that way (I can't find it!), it had a ridiculous strength rating.
-AJ

Edit: don't think it was welded after all, just googled around and found an investment cast titanium ring, none welded.
 
Separate from the ring discussion, I have had requests for splicing distances for the Tech Cord.

Click here:

Splicing Instructions

These dimensions have worked for me and they exceed the mimimum buries recommended by All Gear. However, use at your own risk.
 
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