They bid tree work like they don't need money

BBBTree

BBBTree

Location
CA
They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

I can't believe how nobody around this area knows how to bid to profit. It's extremely nauseating. Wouldn't you think a business owner would only operate a tree service in order to own a house, put kids through college, and just keep the business open? Not this group of hacks around here. I'm not sure if this crowd of hacks service owners even comprehends more than just keeping rent paid and hot food on the table. They DO NOT know how to bid or profit.

With everything considered, I need to do $350 a day 208 days a year plus dump costs, and I figure that $350 on top of that ought to be alright for using my company's assets and skills. That is bare bones tree service costs, and I don't own a boom. So we're looking at $800 a day on average for basic jobs. I would think this would be competitive. Wouldn't anyone else, but I can't believe it though! I can't get that price. Customers give the jobs to other guys coming in lower.

I've owned a small tree service for some time now. In my start up stage I ran it based on working to hard for competitive prices. I changed that.

The tree service veterans have always said that when you run a price competitive tree service, you run around a whole lot and do a whole lot of hard work for a whole lot of nothing. Then at the end of the year, you go out of business like the rest of the services that are based on competitive pricing. Well, this is only too true, and I now do a lot of explaining to customers about quality tree service over cheap services. Some understand that, many do not. I think the business owners understand that more than anyone else.

Anyway, I'm going to start subcontract climbing. I need to get out of my own company for a while. Being sour about hacks and cheap customers is finally taking its toll on me. I love tree work, and subcontracting should be okay for a while.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Thank you for honest comments and insights. I'd like to see all those involved here survive and make a reasonable, safe living. There are a lot of understandable blind-spots and as well as local circumstances. Perhaps this is a start of a really good thread.


Bob Wulkowicz
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Times are tough out there these days. I hear of these problems all the time in the past several years. I've lost weight lately working so hard to make ends meet. And it seems the money is just flying out the window. I don't have an answer. The REBELLION is near! lol
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Some of the best climbers I know are Hispanic in terms of power to weight ratio's.

But that's less than half the equation.

There must be method and technique suitable to safely accomplish whatever the situation demands.

That's why I charge premium coin as I get older, sort of a forced retirement.

You want it done safely and professionally?

Then cough up!

jomoco
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

I can relate to your frustration BBBTree... I hate loosing a job I want. Q: Where do you do most of your work? Also, do you have a well established clientele that gives you repeat business?

It is 'tough times' indeed, or at least that's the 'vibe. For me, I've always been cheap or frugal, at least when it comes to what I need to live with day by day. You see, I grew up poor, so this mindset has worked well for me, because i'm always comfortable just spending all my money on my business.

Now, I see it a couple different ways. Every tree or tree job is different. There are some where a landscaper could hop up on a ladder and toss brush into his pickup. There are some where the tree is so massive, so dead, and so dangerous that no one wants to touch it... and everything in between.

Now I can only speak for the guys in my area, but people definitely still can come up with the money to take care of a tree that may threaten their home and family... everything else can wait if need be. I have been naturally working to fit the niche of recession proof treework, dangerous, hazardous stuff that has no choice but to get done. I'm not a big fan of pruning little trees, and often times I won't do them if it's not worth our time.

I tend to charge between $60-$80/man hour onsite. I usually bid the job having those numbers in mind, then of course consider all of the other factors as well.

A couple years ago, I was at $150/hour for myself and a guy. Sometimes with a chipper and sometimes not. When I bid the job at that number I wouldn't get most jobs (unless it was a referral), I also wasn't as skilled as I am these days.

I've never made it a priority to work on speed in a tree... just efficiency and safety. The speed seemed to come naturally as I got more 'practice'. Now, I can bid a job at $150/hr, or $60/man, or $1,400 per day and am confident I know how much work we will get done, also we make sure to always exceed clients expectations. It's tough, but I love giving them options, leave the chips, take the wood, no clean up... ect...

For me, 'the bid' also depends on who you are working for. Being able to look into their eye, reach the same level, and truly find out what they want done and how to stay within their budget. It's that whole 'scope of the job' you have to be on the same page about.

I'm on a roll right now with bids and I'm not sure why, but I've been stacking it up like I never could imagine would happen. Lately I've been getting %90 of my bids, It's probably a combination of many things just finally coming together.

I feel as if I have an advantage on some of the bigger companies running guys around with worker's comp, and having to bid according to their paperwork, because i'm onsite doing the work myself. Although it may be with a small chipper, chipping into a one ton pickup truck, I know I can get the 'cutting' part done more efficiently than anyone around here.

Now, the problem I've been having and maybe someone can light the spark for me, but on the 'big jobs' or 'huge jobs' where people want their whole property cleared or all the trees done... I always seem to bid too high, I easily get overwhelmed, I start daydreaming of having all the big trucks and stuff that I would need. But, I usually can't land more than a three day job, are the other guys bidding at a reduced rate if it's a week long job? Two week job? Or do they just find a way to get it done in a few days and not make the profit? It seems like I make more money on the 'smaller jobs' than on the 'huge jobs'.

Oh... BBBTree also you may want to look into accepting credit cards, this is a way for people to budget the work accordingly. I try hard not to be the lowest bidder, at least around here... I don't want to be the guy that does it for 'nothing' or gives a 'deal... I want to be the guy that makes the homeowner feel like they are fortunate to have me working for them because I care for their well-being and property, and their able to see that through our work.

Another thing I would like to touch on is 'ADD On" work. Once your on the job... "Hey Brian can you get that limb over there... I usually do it for cheap cheap, but try never to do it for free. Now, I feel that I could be charging way more for the add on stuff... it's like I've already got the client excited about the work and what are they gonna do call another tree service out to do it? But, that's when I usually give them a deal... and I always kick myself later!








 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

There is nothing I'm more into than my tree service. I dream about tree work. I always talk about tree work. I study every tree on the road. All my money is tied up in this thing too.

Climbing is my greatest achievement ever, but the money for it is nothing around here with this piddly little reputation. Maybe I should try car repo work. Hahaha Not(maybe:)really.

The arborists around here with the made names must need an ace climber. I'm excited to meet these other arborists and crews and showcase what I can do. I betchya I'll do just fine, and I'll cherry pick a few jobs here and there too. I'm definitely not going to get rich like this any time soon, but damn the cheap hacks around here anyway.


I just sealed an $1,850 contract to remove a few medium Pepper Trees, grind out the stumps, and remove a few shrubs. He has a few more jobs behind it too.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Bixler, the point of the big equipment is to make those big jobs possible both time wise and cost wise. IMO obtaining that equipment is the hardest thing to do in the tree service. I wish somebody would tell me how they got their loans. LOL
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Give up trying to compete with losers. Instead project an image of being the best at a fair price. If your competition is sloppy hacks you should have no problem landing the good customers that are looking for quality work. Do you really want to work for bargain shoppers anyway? NO!


As far as loans go you need good credit. Keep financial records, make sure they show growth in your business. I'm 29 and have never had a problem getting loans. That said, my parents started me with a car loan and credit cards when I was young. I have never been late, or given anyone any reason to give me a negative credit rating. I feel for you if you have bad credit, it will take a lot more work to get your loans.

I have stressed out over every big purchase I have made. After owning it for a while I always think why didn't I get this sooner =/
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

if the customer is cheap they are not your customer !!! plus you do not want to be known as the tree people who do jobs cheap . you are a professional , right ? i know how frustrating it is to put up with that ,but the fact is you do not have to . where i live there has been a number of crap shoot tree services opening up . they wont last long . i see them come and go every year . just seems like alot more this year i guess because the economy sucks so bad here . just keep educating yourself and be the best that you can be . network your butt off and always have intrigity on every job . you'll be on your way . the people that really care about there trees would rather have you there anyways !!!!!!!!!
smile.gif
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

There are a couple Tree Services' around that will go way low... for whatever reason. I don't hate on em' for that, I just think they are down-playing our industry a bit (sometimes), or maybe they just really need to pay a bill. You win some, and you loose some.

I've heard biz owners say, "Two years ago I had a $600,000 year, now I am struggling to reach the $200,000 mark. I guess it's more how you adjust to an adverse situation that will really determine the outcome.

I've spoken to a successful tree company owner, with world class climbers running their crews, he told me this year he has had to take credit lines out to finish a $75,000 contract. Tough to be relatable right? But really... it's probably just not the small guys.

BBBTree, I feel ya man... the big equipment makes things possible... or at least is most logical on the big jobs. I need to find a way to bridge the gap. That whole transition between being a small tree gig, to a big flashy bang bang tree service... all in due time.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I think that makes me better in any way... just flying the bucket from tree to tree and busting out a big job in a fraction of the time is just sweeeeet!

But for now, I will rent. For now I will make contacts that can help me with competing with the 'established', and am willing to sacrifice great profits just to get the job now... and hopefully many times thereafter.

Arborman, very well said... do the best at a fair price. The rest of your post is great reinforcement to my thoughts on how to 'feel good' about what I'm doing. It gets me fired up and thanks!

On a side note... I try not to let my client 'in' on my figured hourly rate, because It can sound ridiculous to most people. Where else in the world can you charge so much for tree work? I, every now and then, will tell people my hourly rate when I have already bid the job, done the job, and they are ready for more work. They realize it doesn't take me much time to get it done, and can usually understand why I want my rate. And usually realize they would have saved money going by the hour in the first place!

At any rate... it's a tough economy, people are so tight with their money, and tree work is usually the last thing on people's list. Competition is tough, jobs can be scarce, don't get discouraged about the 'low bidders', you'd rather sit at home and tree buzz till your eyes fall out of your head... right?
wink.gif
hehe
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

The weird thing around here is that everyone has a gardener. I've never lived anywhere besides here where nearly everyone has a gardener. My guess is that gardening fees are so low around here that people just figure that tree fees must be about the same. Then they look at me like I'm an idiot because I want to make money as a tree service owner who is taking on their big problems with their big trees. The only idiots are low balling this work and not making any money at this. Then there must be some moronic sense in the person that doesn't understand why fellas want to MAKE money for owning and operating a tree service. Putting up a fence or laying down some sod, that's just getting by money. Nobody ever dies or is injured doing it. Tree services are another story all together. This isn't Fescue and Bermuda we're working on, and it should pay at least career money to own and operate the tree service.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

They don't know how to bid, and they are too afraid to raise their bids. That's all this is.

They don't understand that if four guys bid on a job, and the bids range from $2500 to $5000, then the work's value is now based on those bids. The customer isn't going to keep going through the yellow pages for more bids. If there's a profit in it, then that's four guys that know how to bid their work. They aren't afraid to raise the prices, so they make money for running a tough, expensive operation.

What the four guys are afraid of or think is nuts is lending out everything they own and all of their hard work for nothing.

Tree services are doing okay like this until one hack shows up, under guesses the job. He dumps a big, fat, stinkin' $1,000 bid in there, and all of a sudden that work isn't worth anything. Nothing.

The next week another guy can't keep his cool, runs his business like a boy, so he starts competing with the hack. Now two $1,000 bids get put in the pot, and the rest of the guys are wondering wth. The whole market value goes down from there.

I'm thinking of running a smear campaign around here. Maybe the other tree services will take a hint.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Best thing to do is show the ins. cert. and any other arb. certs you have, that shows the client that you care about your work and their peace of mind that it will get done right. Hacks bid low to get noticed and do more work.

Be professional have references show the client how you would do the job, let the hacks bid them selves out of work. Use your knowledge of trees and tree work speak for you. I have done work for my parents they live in a nice neighborhood, I have picked up work from them asking and me just showing them good tree work and hacks tree work. The old saying " Work smarter not harder"
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

TOPAR... right on. BBB,,, I know it's tough. Continue to be the best and the best will come.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

i think there have been a lot of good points made, and my sympathies go to all who struggle in this business.

i think it's important to remember there are many people in this world who come from very poor backgrounds either from the usa or other countries. some who don't even feel they will ever be able to earn enough to start a family and who work to survive. others who already have a family in a country where a dollar can be stretched a long way. many who are a month away from homelessness.

i share your frustrations and they are real. i believe the true root of the frustration is with the poverty that exists that forces people to do seemingly non-sensical things (ex. ultra-low bids). but i would bet good money that A profit is being made, and whatever profit that is, it's enough for that person on that day.

the stories behind the people that choose to do this work fascinate me. the choices, the will power, the smart, the insane, the good, the bad, the indifferent, the strength of body and mind.

i await the time when we, the brothers and sisters of the world, figure out that the world was made for us all equally, and we celebrate and support those who we respect and appreciate and not those who charge us the least.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Well said good predator, I look forward to that day as well. Although it will never happen, at least not in our lifetime. --- I have learned not to work for certain people, there are red flags that go up every now and then, I've learned to spot them and bail out, in the most respectful way I know how. The people I do tree-work for are wonderful people, or at least they act like it in my presence. They invite me into their homes, tell me stories (at times very personal), offer a beer on a hot day, and send the crew away with wonderful gifts or tips, quite often actually.

Time is a funny thing. It seems as I am always racing the clock, thinking dollars per hour, working hard to make everyone happy. At the end of the day it probably will only matter to me and no one else.

Bidding is a funny beast to battle, I've heard from other biz owners that It's really about how bad you want the work. I could be that $1000 bid, having no work for the week, and take 5 days to do the job working by myself (and be happy as a lark doing it)

On the other hand, when it's a referral bid, I'm licking my chops. It's just a good feeling knowing you already have the job, and you can put it where you need it to keep all on the up-and-up.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

You win some, you lose some, at the end of the day if you can make someone happy and pat yourself on the back for a job well done its a good one. Running a business is stressful, but there are those times when its about the feeling of the breeze through the (insert lovely mature tree here) linden boughs at several stories above terra firma that makes it all worth while.

I feel ya about the hacks, but they will all fade. Grow low and slow, mang...the trees best suited to their landscapes are those that have to fight for water and nutrients, plunge roots deep into the soil and establish a strong base. Excessive irrigation can lead to premature failure.

Orrrr at least thats what I'm told...

Good luck, man.
 
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