Spreading the word re: Arboriculture Industry

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Dramatic spectacular video and stories of good arboriculture, may need to be equally matched in quantity by spectacular accounts of butchery and destruction.

[/ QUOTE ]Mario, I've seen a whole lot more publicity given to bad tree care than good.

It's time to show more of the good.
 
A good arborist can provide a clear understanding of the value of the tree to a client. Citing research and experience to support such.

Arborists have a passion to learn about the latest research, tools and techniques of the profession.


By saying that it's too complex to explain emphasizes the very problem that we as professionals haven't taken the time to learn how to communicate to our market for the purpose of educating them to the value of our services.

Many professional associations leverage mass advertising to simply communicate the message of hiring their members to the client's advantage.

That is what it's about the advantage the client gains by hiring us over the hacks.
 
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Dramatic spectacular video and stories of good arboriculture, may need to be equally matched in quantity by spectacular accounts of butchery and destruction.

[/ QUOTE ]Mario, I've seen a whole lot more publicity given to bad tree care than good.

It's time to show more of the good.

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Good education is frequently ignored - so the solution probably includes presenting the good education in a different fashion.

A lot of people using mere "eye appeal" can easily be tricked, judging the counteriet to be better than the genuine. And often it does look better. It's a common article theme I use due to the problem showing it's face.

The problem with bad tree care publicity is not the amount of it. The problem is how the two extremes are integrated within a presentation.

It's time to show more of both - good and bad - but in a way that integrates them to etch the lesson in people's minds.

Besides - I said "equally matched". So if either one was already covered more, and then they became "equally matched" for coverage, the one not covered as much would be presented in greater abundance.

So that point is covered - thank you for repeating my point.
 
Thank you for your comment. Now, it's time to get down to 'brass taxes' as it were.

It would be marvelous if one could say to all homeowners, 'lend me your ears!' It's a busy world with too many media choices, hours at work and family commitments.

So, let's think along the lines of how a TRUE, QUALIFIED TREE Care Professional would try to explain some key points in an easy to understand way to the general public who may have limited if no true knowledge at all. This is not to say that there are many homeowners who DO understand the difference. So, this information is not for them. This information is for the rest of the general public in an attempt to encourage a better understanding of tracking down and identifying a true arborist - tree care specialist.

So, you are at a conference full of homeowners and they want to know the following:

--Aren't all arborists the same?
--How can I tell that I have hired someone who is looking at the true care of my trees - not just for the season but for years to come?
--Do arborists need training to perform their work?
--What type of 'cheat sheet' can you offer that would at least get me started knowing what to ask or look for to select the right person to take care of my tree care needs?

I'm sure none of you would say 'it's too complex to help you.' I bet many of you would have passionate answers and offer firsthand examples and experiences that would enlighten homeowners.

So, please answer the list above and feel free to speak to the homeowner and help the average person get even a hint of an understanding that when they see someone up a tree working, it's not just to cut up a tree.
 
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--Aren't all arborists the same?

[/ QUOTE ]All arborists have training and experience in the study and care of trees--by definition. Not all climbers, and definitely not all cutters--are arborists.[ QUOTE ]

--How can I tell that I have hired someone who is looking at the true care of my trees - not just for the season but for years to come?

[/ QUOTE ]Check their training and experience, and ask them to back up their opinions with references such as extension publications or other industry literature.[ QUOTE ]

--Do arborists need training to perform their work?
--What type of 'cheat sheet' can you offer that would at least get me started knowing what to ask or look for to select the right person to take care of my tree care needs?


[/ QUOTE ]Certification, references, insurance certificate, ability to formulate a long-range prognosis for the trees, based on different management options. Ability to identify species, familiarity with pests and other influences on condition, awareness of the importance of the bottom half of the tree (the roots and the earth around them).

Never mind the equipment and the uniforms. It's not how they look, it's what they know and do that counts.
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...how a TRUE, QUALIFIED TREE Care Professional would try to explain some key points in an easy to understand way to the general public who may have limited if no true knowledge at all. ...
So, you are at a conference full of homeowners and they want to know the following:



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You wrote "conference", which is near similar.

From teaching classes to home gardeners and some professionals at the college here, and from speaking at seminars like the Portland Yard Garden and Patio Show, and offering seminars to the Master Gardeners or garden club of Brookings Harbor, in Oregon, I conclude that seminars or on-site visits are almost indispensible.

A video may be a close second.

Simple solutions don't take people very far.

Checklists and cheatsheets won't get you very far.

Without some kind of instruction, you are basically limited to BELIEVING.

At best, a checklist gives you something to BELIEVE - not understand.

If the cheatsheet says "ask if they are a Certified Arborist" - that supplies diddley-squat for your understanding.

It mostly allows you to BELIEVE. You can then believe that the arborist has at least 3 years experience to sit for the exam, and that they passed an exam compiled by a significant group of professionals.

Will not tell you how good the arborist is. But you will BELIEVE that they may know more than someone who can't pass 1/3 of the test.

Cheatsheet says ask "do you have a bond?"

So what if 4 homeowners in the same week, all pay one tree worker $10,000 down payment each, to buy and plant trees in the weeks ahead.

Suppose the tree workers looses or spends all the money.

If he is in Oregon, he only needs about $10,000 worth of bond to maintain a license. So what about the other $30,000 if the funds are mishandled?

So in one way, the bond may mean nothing.

That's why this kind of stuff takes hours to explain. And honestly, that's why homeowners get beat-up so badly sometimes - because many of them are not willing to invest hours of preparation. They want cheat sheets and checklists.

It does not work that easy.

After serving on the Oregon Landscape Contractors Board for 2 three year terms, the effectiveness and ineffectiveness of many things became evident.

I'm going to revert back to the Certified Arborist thing again to cap this reply. I know of one Certified Arborist, who passed the exam, and is primarily a Landscape Architect. And a very good landscape architect at that.

If he tells you he is a Certified Arborist, now you tell me how good he is at pruning trees and other tree care.

He may have experience with tree care - and maybe not.

So what is the Certification telling us? And due to the variety of experience possessed by people with Certifications, what information about each person would be relevant, to make each Certification meaningful for our needs?
 
Mario you are doing an excellent job of complicating the situation when the great need is for simplification.

People do not have hours to get edjerkated; the cheatsheet approach is valid and one needs to be developed.
 
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Mario you are doing an excellent job of complicating the situation when the great need is for simplification.

People do not have hours to get edjerkated; the cheatsheet approach is valid and one needs to be developed.

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Guy, after episodes on this forum where users wrote you that my posts were 180 degrees opposite from what you thought, I can't give that comment more than 50 / 50 in my book...
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Gillean ...

I think your solution may be more complicated than you expect, IF you want it to be effective. Not complex to compile, but maybe if you want it to be reliable.

It sounds like you are after something that is accurate, and beneficial as a TOOL.

The wrench in the machinery, may be people not knowing what to do with the TOOL.

Maybe we can look at another profession for a moment to see if it can help us.

Suppose we want a Physician to treat a cancer for us - or even just for a family Physician.

If the doctor has a college degree - was that convincing enough? Not for me, because there are fine doctors and lesser doctors.

If the doctor has insurances - was that convincing enough? Not for me?

Typicaly, when we are seeking medical professionals for our family, we tend to go to family who work in that field for a referral.

Both of my wife's sisters are nurses - one a nurse practitioner. My father in law was a dentist. My brother in law is an adminstrator at a medical facility in the Pacific Northwest. And my wife's training is medical assistant.

When we want medical help, we ask them who they would want working on themselves, because they are "in the loop" and they actually know how to use the TOOL of the CHECKLIST.

So jumping back to arborists...

If I want a really good arborist here, what I'd do - if I was not an arborist - is call the upper echelon of country clubs, and ask the superintendents who they would hire.

Or call management of botanical gardens, university landscape departments, etc.. Or the owners of some of the most established companies.

Unfortunately, these type of people cannot be bombarded with phone calls from every homeowner who wants a referral. But for me - that's one source I would start with.
 
I truly mean no disrespect to you, Mario. In fact, you have offered some useful details and I am grateful to hear from you and the many others.

My comments are bit long. And I just don't want to have to explain the fact that learning ANYTHING can not be done simply and there are no 'cutting corners' allowed. I UNDERSTAND THIS ALREADY. But I hope that you and any others who can offer answers to the questions that I have posed thus far, would keep in mind that a homeowner will NOT stand at the door for a seminar and they are not ready for a science lesson - on average. Additionally, I do understand that being certified offers one a number but does not prove any true credentials of true tree care. There are some basic 'good sense' things that should be considered - references - and CHECK them.

Unfortunately, I am sure that I have purchased a number of items that I have not adequately researched or even knew that there were places to go to find out what I should be asking or not when hiring a 'specialist.' Should I continue tto shop at WalMart? I imagine many of you have some lovely opinions.

Consumer education
Topic One - Homeowners
Topic Two - Getting kids, families away from electronics and outdoors to appreciate what has always been but may not always be without care.

HOMEOWNER FOCUS/EDUCATION
We can build on a beginning 'Cheat sheet' or let's change the name if this offers some comfort...

'Things To Consider When Taking Care of Your Trees & The Value They Bring to Your Property.'

Healthy Outdoor Fun that Offers A Lasting Appreciation on The World Around Us. (Not sending everyone to the trees. K? It's about leading people through a specific course to qualified facilitators who understand what trees can be climbed and what trees have had enough 'human touch' and then others that are just not safe.)

I ASK IN ALL HONESTY AND SINCERITY:
People who do good work and care about the longterm care of trees should be getting the work. Gotta educate homeowners and help them understand trees have value and impact the value of their home. So, how do these folks hire or qualify the right person to allow them access to their trees?

If you sit indoors a great deal like I do, I am on a computer, on the phone, in meetings while also thinking about my boys, doctor appointments, groceries et all. My daily life does not take me in or even near trees. (OK. I pass by trees everyday. In the Triad area of North Carolina, we are blessed with a great deal of natural beauty.)
So, I have gone from meeting a man who owns a company that sells tree gear to tree people, to seeing firsthand how important trees are to him to people he considers close friends like Steve Sillett and the like. He didn't have to help take my two boys up in a tree in his neighborhood. My 10 year old has a huge self-esteem issue. He was NOT going up the tree. Tobe saw this and made it a point to spend the next 15 or 20 minutes with Jordan to encourage him to climb and then stand on a branch next to his son, Cameron who, at the time was 3 years younger than my son. Please realize, my son was stubborn. He didn't want to try. He gave up. Tobe wouldn't let him and encouraged him and was patient enough to change this little fellow's mind to climb into a tree.
-I didn't buy any climbing gear. I am not trained nor do I feel equipped to safely climb a tree or help my boys climb.
-Tobe didn't have to take his personal time, nor did Michael Tain to make a major, positive impact in my children's lives. Both men brought their gear and shared their time, their patience and a lot of smiles and encouragement.

If this helps anyone questioning what my motive is, I hope this information can help you understand a mother who felt transformed by the power of kind and caring and intelligent men who helped a mom and two kids understand the fun of trees while also sharing a bit of simple education of the tree we were climbing.

So, is it ok if I try to give back in the way that I can? I am asking for your help. All of you know the problems. Let's spend the rest of the time considering about solutions or 'starting points' and then sending folks to web sites that offer details or include organizations such as ISA and TCI.

HOMEOWNERS ANGLE: Inform homeowners that deciding to take care of their trees can either grow or reduce the value of their property is a helpful nudge to encourage people to ask some questions.

I have some questions. But the homeowners are in the audience. What else gets under your skin that you feel homeowners don't know/don't check out before bringing the WRONG person on their property to 'take care' of the health of the trees?

KIDS AND OUR FUTURE LEADERS:
Kids natually love the outdoors. PlayStation, WII, Handheld Nintendo DS and now their own cell phones with text chat capability? Why would these boys and girls want anything else but the next gadget? Before all this great innovation came around, I believe kids played more baseball, hopscotch, rode bikes, etc. So, what do today's kids know about trees? If we don't give the future generation some reason to appreciate the natural environment over electronic gadgets, who will care how many more manufacturing plants, developments, etc will be built?

Can we focus on connecting people to trees and connecting them correctly with accurate information? If you don't provide it, we all continue passing the trees, buying WIIs and not really thinking of trees as much of a value past what we see driving to our summer vacation.
Complaining is a lot of hot air.
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How about a lot of problem solving. Provide warnings and 'don't forget this' but please try to restrain from taking me all the way back to where I started - I WANT to listen to you and allow you to share your concerns and wishes for the future of trees. Give me horror stories re: homeowners who were glad to find a true tree care provider...or situations where you were NOT hired and then the homeowner had to call you in to try to correct damage done by someone not knowing how to take care of his trees. I want to do my part by assisting the general population to appreciate all that trees provide. Keeping people away from trees isn't helping and quite frankly, is quite counter productive. How can you make a connection if you don't spend time with something to understand and appreciate a person's value or that of trees?

Separate Topic: The Arboriculture Industry
What do you think should be done to weed out the tree care givers from anyone who passes a test? Can there be additional training/testing, shadowing a new arborist or a once a year shadowing program to verify that the arborist is performing tree care up to ANSI standards and to the best benefit of the trees?
Where do you want to see the industry go next? Is training important? No matter where you purchase your equipment, what are key items that are 'musts' to make sure you are safe while also preserving the tree by causing no stress or harm?

Let's brainstorm and not consider any possible ideas as wrong. But let's bring answers or ideas to begin an open dialog that connects true tree care professionals to everyday folks who can see arborists as vital members of society that truly look after us all by keeping their eyes trained on the bark, the branches, the leaves of the trees.
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I think that "consumer education" options make as much or more sense than brief tips or checklists.

Actually, a good chunk of what a homeowner should know is in the ISA website in it's information pages.

So in a way, I'd say that a larger chunk of a checklist, should be what are homeowners options to educate themselves, in addition to credentials to check.

One thing I place minimal merit on is awards.

At least with landscape organizations like OLCA in Oregon, they hand out awards. But the entry is only by companies that paid, and judged by peers.

But who are the peers and what are they judging.

I've seen some designs judged as winners, where plants were not positioned well. And each year, the judges have varying skills.

One drawback in looking for the presence of awards, is that there are as many and probably more companies without awards, that do as good or better work.

So I'd rule-out awards.

The more we run around in circles on this issue, the more we can see why there is a Certification exam, to remove poeple from running around in circles, and possibly giving them two or three straight paths to choose from.
 
I'm a bit tired. I can check out the ISA web site. No worries. Just a thought: homeowners and people in general favor getting an answer rather than being sent to a web site. For me, I would have to validate any information I received. I was hoping that every person would give ONE KEY MUST DO - to hire the appropriate tree care professionals. No more problems. Just answer the question, pretty please and thanks!
 
One thing to suggest to home owners trying to select a person/company to work on their trees is to talk to them. If the person(arborist) knows what kind of tree it is (Latin name, common name, quirky facts, stories related to the tree, common pest/diseases, cultural problems etc..) than that person is likely a very good arborist who actually cares about what they do. If all they can say is "It's some kind of oak" or "it's got bugs" they may want to keep looking.

I am glad that you are taking this on. We(professional arborists) need as much good publicity as possible and the general public needs A LOT of education.

If we want to be taken seriously by the general public we need to stand behind what we are saying. In the way we present ourselves to the public and our clients. I hear a lot of talk of safety as the #1 goal yet I see a lot of pictures posted here of folks working with NO PPE! First impressions go a long way and are sometimes all we get.
 
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I'm a bit tired. I can check out the ISA web site. No worries. Just a thought: homeowners and people in general favor getting an answer rather than being sent to a web site. For me, I would have to validate any information I received. I was hoping that every person would give ONE KEY MUST DO - to hire the appropriate tree care professionals. No more problems. Just answer the question, pretty please and thanks!

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Okay, let's do it the way you implied.

We'll play that game for a moment. You are the homeowner - here is your answer from me:

"TERRILL COLLIER IN PORTLAND IS AN EXCELLENT ARBORIST"

Assume you know nothing about me - now what are you going to do? And you have your answer.

Let's continue the game - now what do you do?

Is Collier even going to do the job? Not likely. Which worker will do it? Are they Certified? How much experience do they have?

It does not take more than a moment to see that the path of little effort is of little value.

Likewise, if I give the referral, then what is the referral worth?

The task of choosing an good arborist has at least two aspects. One is validating the value of the arborist. The other is validating the value or credibility of the person who gave their name.

The homeowner who won't expend effort to go to a website, may not be in a position to expect an arborist who will care for their trees right. It would be like rolling the dice.
 
A thought came to mind.

Now that I tossed out Collier's name to you, why don't you let me know how you validate him?

If there is a complaint against him aside from not being inexpensive, I can't imagine anything negative. So since the end result should be a positive one, it would be interesting to see how we can arrive at that conclusion.

To stay on the safe side, let's just see how we can validate the best that Collier has to offer - the positive.

So he's one of the highest profile arborists and companies in the Pacific Northwest. That's why I supplied his name as a best answer in the earlier reply...

TERRILL COLLIER / Collier Arbor Care

Now - what?

Let me know if you think he is a good choice to hire.

And why? If you go to his website, and it sounds good, let us know why it sounds believeable. If we don't use his site, what is the next step?

Let's assume we are like many who won't be on an arborist website asking for help. What can we decide about Collier, from just what we have written so far?

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I am grateful for your reply. I would like to take all the ideas and put them together and then validate them. There have been some solid suggestions and comments. And unfortunately, arborists are not on the Top Ten News Topics. But what you do and what you are taking care of and why you do it - well, it's good stuff, good stories and I think people need to know who and what an arborist is and does. A long time ago in the early 1900s, you would have been called a tree surgeon. Seems like reviving that title would be much more accurate and would also provide a new perception of the value of what an arborist is doing and impacting!

I don't want to drone on. But I will continue to hope that if there is another person who wants to offer an idea or an answer that might make sense to a homeowner or might encourage people to appreciate trees by getting involved with them, near them...well, there are a lot of great possibilities. With your help and not the 'no one will ever listen' attitude that I can attribute easily to my 7 or 10 year old, let's make it a rule.

Like I tell my children, if you have something positive to say or contribute great. Otherwise, keep your trap shut
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You know what? You're absolutely precious! You're not just a 'trip' as they say, you are literally a full vacation!
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No matter how I prepare my sentences asking for answers to questions, you just wanna step in and remind me of all the things that people WON'T do or take the time to do. You share such heart warming caring assistance that involves a diatribe that comes full with sarcasm and disbelief, it seems in all of mankind. Let's do this. No one can know what they don't until someone makes the information known. I want to allow you the comfort that many folks may not consider researching before hiring someone to help with work on their home or yard. Maybe folks don't check on the person who watches their children. It's okay. You're right too. But from this point forward, if you don't have a positive solution or informative comment that could encourage even one person to hire...well, maybe YOU, just know that I have heard your disbelief.

I bet you didn't know that I could provide a long list of well-educated homeowners of various levels of education and income who do not know that there is a way to check on an arborist's certification AND that there are, in fact a few places/web sites (arborists who offer information to their customers to help them for the future) that can help make a decision on who to hire. AND what if homeowners knew how important hiring the right person with the right training was? Oh my goodness. Please put on a happy face and use your wonderful wit and charm to offer something of value that can enlighten your fellow man and someone who is most appreciative of someone who must be one of the most well-known and appreciated arborists in the industry! I am prayerfully looking forward to what great ideas you CAN offer!
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You know what? You're absolutely precious! You're not just a 'trip' as they say, you are literally a full vacation!
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No matter how I prepare my sentences asking for answers to questions, you just wanna step in and remind me of all the things that people WON'T do or take the time to do. You share such heart warming caring assistance that involves a diatribe that comes full with sarcasm and disbelief, it seems in all of mankind.

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Now maybe we are getting to the root of your methods and approach.

Co-workers intentionally nicknamed me the "Master of Invention" because my best contribution on a professional horticulture crew was supplying solutions - solutions that were different and effective.

So your response is no surprise.

In reviewing this thread, instincts seem to tell me that you post question after question to channel and corral arborists to support a super-structure that you have already preconceived.

This forum has dozens of arborists with a lot of experience and excellent ideas, but I suspect that your questions are going to filter-out the most productive suggestions they can offer.

I've already taught homeowners and Master Gardeners how to handle this successfully. Remember the seminars I referred too?

The reason they made progress, is that they were not resistant to thinking outside the "nine dots" that they walked into the room with. A few of them had a look of shock on their faces, because they came in with preconcieved ideas. But they changed their mind and started listening.

This is something I've seen often in seminars with non-arborists. It's as if people have already predetermined what the speaker is supposed to say - the nature of the talk.

You remind me of those people, except that their end result was not inclusive of something like your last reply.

As the layers of your replies seem to peel away the layers, you latest replies seem to be revealing a journalist similar to others we have encountered.

Honestly, in nutshell, here's the deal. Based on what you have asked, and the direction it seems you are going with this, I think the ISA has already has better material.

At this point, I suggest you go to the ISA site, read their brochures and pages, then build on that if at all.
 
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Mario you are doing an excellent job of complicating the situation when the great need is for simplification.

People do not have hours to get edjerkated; the cheatsheet approach is valid and one needs to be developed.

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Amen.




SZ
 
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Mario you are doing an excellent job of complicating the situation when the great need is for simplification.

People do not have hours to get edjerkated; the cheatsheet approach is valid and one needs to be developed.

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Amen.

SZ

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That quote would have sounded smart, if it was smart.

But people do have hours to get educated. I have hours. Business people I know have hours. And most people I work for have hours.

So you bought-into a counterfiet statement.

The reason that some people reap problems, is not investing time.

The average person in Oregon does not do a license check. And that's one of the big cracks that let's some hacks pass through.

They just don't invest the time - but they have the time.

To say that most people don't have hours, when they really do have hours, is not the truth. And if it is not the truth - what is it?

Being on the license board in Oregon, really helped me to see the consequences of the "don't have hours" crowd. We dealt with reams of problems resulting from people not investing the time they should have - and the time that they did have.

Some was contractors not investing some hours, and some homeowners not investing hours.

Many of the serious homeowner and contractor conflicts funneled their way to our meetings, where the unresolved issues had to be dealt with. And many could have been prevented. But prevention requires time. And hours are time.
 
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