It's time for a change

Average number of climbs in a day?

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Jeff_Cochran

Jeff_Cochran

New member
Location
Memphis TN
It\'s time for a change

Well, I have decided that I will only be competing in events that allow SRTWP in some fashion other than the RIG, even though i climb DdRT. This decision isn't meant to start a war and it does't mean I won't volunteer to help or judge a TCC, because the camaraderie of the competitors and the gear advancements is the draw. In my opinion, the best way to get the attention of the ITCC's rule committee is to boycott as a climber. Without climbers there will be no events. When events turn into recreational climbs and the focus isn't on competition and rules, then we have their undivided attention and the rule makers will have to reevaluate their decision on SRTWP. It isn't fair that they limit a climbers system or ability to work a comp tree the way they work trees everyday. Competition should be about advancements not set backs. I love to compete, but if we aren't seeing the best the other competitors can do because their climbing is limited to a system and gear they don't use daily what is the point of competing? And what kind of competition limits competitors when they are competing safely and updating technology? Furthermore, things change, systems change, rules change, to try and rule from the rear or to try and hedge the bets to reflect the outcome they want to see is just plain wrong. Foot locking is outdated if used for anymore than a short twenty or thirty foot accent. There should be an open accent event instead, but that changes the game. The big shot is used daily by a crap load of production climbers why are we still focusing on hand throws. The work climb at most high level events is over in two or three minutes for most climbers, as a result there should be more stations. This competition should reflect the day to day work and individual systems we work on if we can prove they are safe to the head judge. Peace, Jeff
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

I am with you Jeff. I think I will be volunteering at WI this year.

I would keep the footlock if you choose to do it but allow any safe method of accent to reach the determined height.

I disagree with the big shot. Throwing is skill. That needs to stay IMO.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

and what is up with these speed climbs where you are body thrusting up 35'? on weird angle trees? who does that anymore? why is that given just as many points as the accent event? climbing and flying up a tree ringing bells is fun but to body thrust 35'? what are we teaching with that event. even if the tree is awesome and perfect for a speed line minus the 35' body thrust then maybe we should look at putting a ladder up rope or something else then it would be worth the twenty points. there just has to be better ways that reflect our industry better.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

i just found out there are 4000 Rope wrenches working production tree work everyday. No fatalities yet. The rules committee wanted testing and history? there it is: real world testing be real world arborist 4000 of them worldwide. put that in your pipe and smoke on a minute. thats 32000 or more hours a day! 160000 hours of brutal tree work a week in wet, cold, hot, frozen, dusty conditions with idiots, accidents, and bad operators abounding, rigged limbs running down ropes, falling brush, dodging hangers, and acceding through suckers. pummeled daily, mercilessly by professional people in a brutal work environment. Hell our shoes don't even last a year most of the time. Wake up people that is 8,320,000 hours a year and all accidents are user related setup problems. The same accidents happen everyday DdRT, the deference is we write those off because of lack of training. what is the deference with SRTWP? 8,320,000 billable safe productive hours a year tell me that SRTWP with the RW, UNI, Hitch Hiker, or Rig is safe and going to become the norm over time. The TCIA already have a manual for safe SRTWP techniques. Wake up. It's time to change.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

[ QUOTE ]
What i mean by the throw line statement is does that event really need to be worth 30 points?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, maybe not. When it went to 30 points I was excited. It is one of my better events.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

Jeff,
I totally agree with you except for 2 points, its our history, and there is a part of me that respects the way it was done, Its like the sthil comps where they have cross cut saws, no one does that anymore. but its fun to watch and to do it once a year is fun. I would imagine anyone who has ever witnessed my foot locking skills would agree, it has to be fun to watch. but the other part is that I think its important. I all but sleep with my ascenders. But in a situation where I come up to a job site where there is a rope in a tree and a guy hurt, I know how to get up there and still do it faster than waiting on the fire department. For me, comps help force me to maintain my very terrible foot locking abilities.


maybe if we made it more evident that it was a historical throwback and a way of respecting our elders and the craft, rather than the gold standard of modern tree access?? And we used the events to also teach the newer guys the easier more ergonomic way? what would be really cool is if we could bring in evidence of the change of past. old hand saws, paint cans, some old manila rope, some of those things they called saddles, that actually looked like you could strap it to a horse and be ok.
even compete on some of the old techniques.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

[ QUOTE ]
I would keep the footlock if you choose to do it but allow any safe method of accent to reach the determined height.

[/ QUOTE ]



I think footlock has to stay footlock only. As a poor footlocker, I can speak to the effort and practice it takes to be a good one. I can SRT pretty quickly and with much less effort than foot locking, which is sweet for work, but for an athletic competition it has to be apples to apples. My two cents.
Jon
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

The open accent event works well for charlotte, maybe have a choose one or the other like they do there; you can compete in Foot locking or open accent but not both. or have people compete in both and teach new ways of access.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

That's a good solution.
For the record, I'm on board to see SRT in comps, but they aren't really about work are they?
It's an athletic event, just inspired by our work.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

I'm an srt climber(mostly) and it ticks me off that I can't use my system when I compete in my first comp in may. And it is just effing politics. A friend told me to contact the itcc board directly, because that's where the insurance for chapter events comes from. If enough people contact and start intelligent conversation, hopefully the scale will tip a little faster. That said, worst case scenario I think it will be a couple years before the rules change.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

This was the response from the ITCC rules committee to my boycott thus far:

I'm very sorry you feel this way Jeff. It is not the intention of the ITCC rules committee to hinder the advancement of techniques or equipment.This said the techniques and equipment used must be acceptable for tree climbing and must be manufactured and certified to meet the standards established by the relevant government bodies for work at height. There are a number of devices approved and tested by the manufacturer for single rope technique work positioning without redundancy and these devices can be used under ITCC rules. Again I am very sorry you feel this way but the route you wish to take does nothing to solve or address these issues.

Regards
John A H Coles

CHAIR ITCC Rules committee.

This was my response:

8,320,000 safe production hours a year on the RW alone. That doesn't include the uni, hitch hiker, or rig. There are 4000 RWers working that way everyday. No deaths, No accidents except user error. we have plenty of those in Ddrt. So what is the problem? I feel the problem is the old boys club doesn't want a new wave to sweep the competition scene and mess up the ranks and "THE WAY" tree work is supposed to be done. do the math and really research the uses and users daily. 4000 arborist that use these techniques daily. 4000 Daily. and growing. what more do you want. If the worry is a free fall from a falling limb then why is any ART product allowed to be put into competition, except the rope guide and snake anchor?
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

The more I think about this the madder I get. It is ok to use any prussic/pulley/rope/knot/attachment, but add a piece of kit that adds friction so the user can SRTWP off the same set up that people Ddrt off of and it is a no go. But it is ok to use just a friction hitch in an srt accent only set up as a progress capture and it is ok to descend on said hitch in an emergency with added friction above or below. This is bigotry and hard headedness at it's finest.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

I read every comment on this thread and have nothing to say because you guys said it all. I just had to say that.
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

Are hitches devices that have to be approved by the manufacturers...the climber?!

What devices are made/certified for SRT?

So many recurring unanswered questions?
 
Re: It\'s time for a change

No, I don't think it's an insurance issue at the international level. Chapter events are covered by the itcc insurance, so they have to play by the itcc rules. If the itcc accepts rw,chapters will probably be more than happy to. All srt competitors just need to inundate the itcc office with communication. Stating calmly that we expect to be included in their events because we are a growing part of arboriculture. (Sounds like gay marriage debate all of a sudden)

Jeff I think the line of reasoning you just voiced is a really great one. The only difference between a figure eight and a rw is location in the system. Neither is life support. I will be sending emails to itcc folks and that will be in them.
 
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