Inverted barber chair

Yan Manson

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Location
montreal
I cut this dead ash tree today . I set a tag line tied to a pickup, the guy put a little to much tension on it. It started to crack as soon I started my back cut. I was guessing it would barber chair, I had a nice escape route.20180427_115306.webp 20180427_115432.webp
 
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I’m kidding about the pie cut. It’s an open face notch, and I plunged behind it, leaving a small trigger. When my coworker broke the trigger with the pull line the whole thing split from the stump and never even hinged. Scary stuff.
 
I hate to be an asshole, but I'm gonna. That's not a proper notch, under-cut, or pie-cut (cherry tree). No offense, but sometimes we all need to sharpen our skills at the stump.
 
That cherry looks fine, but hard to read in the picture.


the real question is why was it pretensioned so much?

Stand that thing up on tight wedges (set the wedges firmly, not trying to lift the tree, just compress the fibers a bit above and below the wedges) in the bored-backcut, with a slight tension in the line, then release the back-strap. Clear the area, and pull enough to rotate the tree over on the hinge, not anything more. People pull way t0o hard, way too often,sometimes so that they can use too thick of a hinge (not saying so, here, with your hinge, as I can't read it from the pic).





Hard to read the ash notch and back-cut. How high of a stump-shot did you use?
 
Shallow notch because it was leaning heavily over a bank, and had a lot of white rot and decay all the way up. There was no tension on the pull line while I was cutting, and one person pulled on it with no mechanical advantage. I essentially made a snap cut below the trigger so I could be well away when it hit the top of the bank and jumped up.

Hard to read the ash notch and back-cut. How high of a stump-shot did you use?

A little over waist height, root flare was about two inches below the bottom of what you see here. Trying to minimize jumping off the stump when the stem hit the top of the bank.
 
No you don’t! (That is a backhanded compliment)

My question to you; what would a deeper hinge do?

Tony
All right you got me. I do enjoy being an asshole just a little tiny bit.
From the looks of the pic, the depth of the undercut in the cherry was way to shallow. Even in a heavy leaner you should get your undercut depth at least a 1/4 the diameter of whatever your cutting, which will for one thing put your hinge closer to the center of the tree, where it belongs. His hinge ended up so close to the outside edge of his tree that it had no choice but to do what it did.
It obviously wasn’t a big deal with this tree, but it can be disastrous and deadly when that sort of thing happens in big wood.
 
I hate to be an asshole, but I'm gonna. That's not a proper notch, under-cut, or pie-cut (cherry tree). No offense, but sometimes we all need to sharpen our skills at the stump.

The diameter is too small for a deep face cut, right? He could't bore it if he deepened the face, unless he hauls out the chain mortiser, lol.
 
Sorry about your thread Jimbo.

The diameter is too small for a deep face cut, right?
+1

... you should get your undercut depth at least a 1/4 the diameter of whatever your cutting, which will for one thing put your hinge closer to the center of the tree, where it belongs.

I see where you're coming from. I've seen that happen to coworkers felling spar poles when they get the we don't need a rope in it syndrome. Hard to wedge over in that scenario, especially hickory.
 
Too many people are using bore cuts too often. It’s a specialty cut used in special circumstances, primarily with hard leaners. And deeper face cuts give the tree something to tip over on, put a shallow face in a big tree you are trying to wedge over and you’ll be there all day beating on wedges.
Edit: I was speaking in general terms and not referring to jimbo’s or cjms pictures. Like tony says I wasn’t there and don’t know what you were up against.
 
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First a disclaimer! We can Armchair Sawyer this till we are blue in the face. None of us were there, a few pics online and a brief description are a start, but by no means comprehensive. Hindsight is always perfect vision and if "if and buts were candy and nuts everyday would be Christmas"
Take this discussion as just that, a discussion, not an attach or criticism of Jimbo66 or anybody else.

Furthermore, I am discussing tree felling from the ground. While the principles may be similar, aerial cuts are different for many reasons.

Lastly, there are two aspects to this conversation Concepts and Application. Concepts guide the application and are general, but relatively constant. Application varies widely for many reason from weather, to wood type, to terrain. A attempt to debate application here in this forum with such a wide audience is futile. As was recently pointed out to me, the internet is a million miles wide, but an inch deep. I respect most of your judgements, but no silver bullet exists for tree felling. There are some very definite wrong ways as there are a plethora of correct ones.

Having said all that...

The face cut (call it what you like) accomplishes 3 things. One, it establishes the front of the hinge. In this case, the apex of the notch forms the front of the hinge. In doing this it also gives the tree room to move on the hinge. Think of the face cut as the space in front of a door. Without the space the door cannot swing on the hinge. This space is the second thing a face cut provides. When the faces meet, the tree either stops (rare) or the hinge breaks (this is the plan!) Third, the face cut removes a section of support from the tree. I equate it to breaking one leg off of an empty 4 legged table. The table does not fall, but if weighted or influenced it is most likely to tip toward the missing leg. Of course there are many variables and a tree with lean will always go with lean unless influenced by something else be it gravity, mechanical advantage, or simple brute force. Suffice to say that the face cut removes a section of support or removes wood fiber so there is room for the tree to be influenced in a specified direction.

A deep face cut (defined as a cut with the apex or front of the hinge beyond the center of gravity of the tree) is akin to breaking two legs off our hypothetical 4 leg table. Break two legs and the table begins to fall, unless acted on by something. So in effect when it comes to tree felling, any face cut less than even with the center of gravity of the tree is going to meet the concept, but not all applications. There are reasons to have a shallow face cut. Small trees, leaving room to bore cut, preserving butt wood (logging), positions as much of the hinge as possible in sap wood (live trees of course) as this wood will "bend" better in most cases. There are conversely reasons to cut deeper. Influence lean, bypass defects or rot, increase hinge length.

The concept remains the same, the applications very different. Guidelines for proper face cut depth (or hinge positioning because that is what we are really discussing) can vary. Rico mentioned 1/4 . Back in the day my Father told me 1/3. Neither are wrong. For training and accuracy I refer to percentages The issue with 1/4, 1/3 or whatnot is that not all trees are round! Depending on felling direction 1/3 of the way in might be drastically different on the same tree. Giving a percentage smooths this out. 80% is an excellent starting point for the cutter to var as application dictates.

The concept of tree felling is this. The face cut, used in conjunction with a back cut crates a predictable weak point. When stressed (by whatever means, gravity, MA, wind) the tree will fail at it's weakest point. If the felling cut is not the weakest point, the tree will fail elsewhere.

In CmJ's case with the Cherry there I theorize that after it was was bored too much hold on the trigger could caused the final result. The same could be said for the hinge. If too thick the force that pulled it over was not enough to bend a think hinge, but obviously enough to cause failure at a weaker point. Rico's recommendation of a deep face may be spot on. I disagree however, seems to me the hinge thickness was excessive for the diameter/ wood characteristics and it may very well have been over tensioned with either internal (lean) or external (pull) force. Either way we all have a plan till we get smacked in the face. Seems as if taking the escape route prior to pulling paid off! I find this to always be a good idea if possible.

In Jimbo's case it is rather evident the tree was pretensioned way too much. And I mean WAY TOO much! Good job on the escape route!

As a side note: on EAB Killed ash. Be careful! they do not behave predictably. While Jimbo's seems obvious, there may have been other factors.

Thanks for the opportunity to blather on a bit.

Tony
 
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I cut this dead ash tree today . I set a tag line tied to a pickup, the guy put a little to much tension on it. It started to crack a soon I started my back cut. I was guessing it would barber chair, I had a nice escape route.View attachment 51244 View attachment 51245

I am curious if this is was an EAB killed tree. A lot of the recorded incidents cutting them have been basal failures.
 

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