How dead is TOO dead?

People build houses and bridges out of dead wood. It can be very strong or very weak. Learn the spectrum of decay and how it manifests. Go into a forest and find dead trees of all sizes. Shake them, rope them, try and push them over. Climb on them and bounce around. Notice the tips if they break off. Notice the roots.

If you know what to look for, the job is for you. If you don't know then pass on it.
 
Level of dead is easy too see but a dead tree changes how you remove it making variables that need to be accounted for. It is doable but now the wood reacts differently when we cut. Re directing higher tends to be limited so a lower rigging point creats shock load. And tie in points must stay low and close to the rigging that all ends up right on the spar.
 
I agree with pretty much everything everyone said, although making houses and bridges out of dead wood is misleading. The wood was live when it was harvested and then dried and processed in a controlled environment, ensuring the maintenance of the strength. I have not seen too many logging trucks going to the mill with trees that had been standing dead in the forest for a while. However, yes technically the trees on the truck are dead.
 
Steve Connally said:
I agree with pretty much everything everyone said, although making houses and bridges out of dead wood is misleading. The wood was live when it was harvested and then dried and processed in a controlled environment, ensuring the maintenance of the strength. I have not seen too many logging trucks going to the mill with trees that had been standing dead in the forest for a while. However, yes technically the trees on the truck are dead.
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Point taken Steve. You are absolutely right.
 
Wasn't trying to be a dick but thanks for the comment!! Appreciate it. Probably the biggest lesson I have taken away from this whole dead tree talk over the last few years is, if you lack the experience and do not have an experienced mentor with you as a coach walk away. I am not experienced with dead trees. I own that and gauge every dead one by that motto. If its too much for my experience level (with dead trees) I have nothing to prove. No on a totally unrelated but sort of related note. I have lost respect for bosses who would knowingly put their employees health at risk to make a buck. I worked for a guy who would put the other climber in dead punky and rotten trees all the time. He finally came to know he couldn't bully me into it. He got tired of sending me home at the cost of proving a point. Sometimes I would tell him I wasn't confident about a certain tree. He would say, no problem, I wouldn't climb it either and then put the retard up there. It's wrong. There are many ways to skin a cat and do so by reducing risk. If it is impossible to reduce that risk then let somebody else get the job. Is it work the health of your guys? Is it worth the financial impact to your biz to settle in a law suit? There's more than one tree in the city. Passing on a job isn't a pride thing. Sometimes its prudent. Charge out the ass. Get 2 cranes on the job, rent a lift, get a helo. Why is it on us to do the job cheaply? We aren't the ones who let this thing sit there dead for years and then want it down now. So you never change the oil in your truck. Neglect rite? Then it blows up and you want it repaired for the price of an oil change? BS. Homeowner neglect. It's not our responsibility to cushion the blow financially at the cost of our safety. Our industry doesn't get paid as it should due to this bidding practice. I better bid low because whoever tree company will get the job. Screw it, let them have it!! Then the homeowner will know when somebody gets killed or their property is trashed. Not my problem. I once bid a good job at a reasonable price. Somebody lowballed me by $75.00 The company who did the job pushed a large oak block off the spar onto a groundie. He didn't die but he was bad off. Had no workmans comp either. Customer called me and asked what they should do about the remainder of the tree. I did not finish it for them. Maybe because I asked if the $75.00 was worth all that or maybe because I told them I did not want the job. Who knows. I didn't even let the conversation get far enough to give a price. There is no fair market value for tree work from the consumers view point. We are expected to be cheap. Screw that, price it for what its worth no matter what the cost. We are talking about the health of our workers and the liability of our companies.
 
We have a lot of dead trees in my area. Sometimes I have good luck using a throw line to pull most of the dead out of dead trees before I begin. You may be surprised at how much easier a tree looks with 15 feet snapped off the tips. It usually makes the trees much more manageable and gives me a better idea of how strong the rest of the tree is. If I am still worried I get a lift or sub it out.
 
BuckmasterTreeService said:
We have a lot of dead trees in my area. Sometimes I have good luck using a throw line to pull most of the dead out of dead trees before I begin. You may be surprised at how much easier a tree looks with 15 feet snapped off the tips. It usually makes the trees much more manageable and gives me a better idea of how strong the rest of the tree is. If I am still worried I get a lift or sub it out.
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Back in the spring, a neighbor had the top finally fall out of a big dead pine.

The bark had already turned loose.

While I was gone, the neighbor decided he wanted that pine down: we cleaned up the top for him when it fell.

He called the local guy, and that guy climbed that tree and put a pull line in it for $175!!!!

The neighbor was bragging about how cheap the guy was, and I asked him why the local guy didn't just use a big shot?

It is a thousand wonders the pine did not bust out while he was climbing it.
 
I know when you are being a dick Steve, and this time isn't one ! (y) (Jk).

This dead tree discussion touches on one of my pet peeves. The company with a lift tells the HO that "this tree is dangerous and cannot be climbed". Well I show up and I don't have a lift and the tree is perfectly safe but the HO has been scared into not letting anyone climb it. That's why I came up with the houses and bridges line.
 
Oroboros said:
I know when you are being a dick Steve, and this time isn't one ! (y) (Jk).

This dead tree discussion touches on one of my pet peeves. The company with a lift tells the HO that "this tree is dangerous and cannot be climbed". Well I show up and I don't have a lift and the tree is perfectly safe but the HO has been scared into not letting anyone climb it. That's why I came up with the houses and bridges line.
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I have had those discussions with homeowners many times, often about living trees.
I have missed a couple of fun jobs simply because I lift myself rather than using a machine to do it. I think I may borrow that line when it comes up next and see how it goes.
 
Oroboros said:
I know when you are being a dick Steve, and this time isn't one ! (y) (Jk).

This dead tree discussion touches on one of my pet peeves. The company with a lift tells the HO that "this tree is dangerous and cannot be climbed". Well I show up and I don't have a lift and the tree is perfectly safe but the HO has been scared into not letting anyone climb it. That's why I came up with the houses and bridges line.
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I respect and bow to your dead tree experience. Like I said. I just don't have it and I'm too old and wise to learn by trial and error on a bad tree. Now if we did it together that would be a totally different ball game.
 
Steve Connally said:
Wasn't trying to be a dick but thanks for the comment!! Appreciate it. Probably the biggest lesson I have taken away from this whole dead tree talk over the last few years is, if you lack the experience and do not have an experienced mentor with you as a coach walk away. I am not experienced with dead trees. I own that and gauge every dead one by that motto. If its too much for my experience level (with dead trees) I have nothing to prove. No on a totally unrelated but sort of related note. I have lost respect for bosses who would knowingly put their employees health at risk to make a buck. I worked for a guy who would put the other climber in dead punky and rotten trees all the time. He finally came to know he couldn't bully me into it. He got tired of sending me home at the cost of proving a point. Sometimes I would tell him I wasn't confident about a certain tree. He would say, no problem, I wouldn't climb it either and then put the retard up there. It's wrong. There are many ways to skin a cat and do so by reducing risk. If it is impossible to reduce that risk then let somebody else get the job. Is it work the health of your guys? Is it worth the financial impact to your biz to settle in a law suit? There's more than one tree in the city. Passing on a job isn't a pride thing. Sometimes its prudent. Charge out the ass. Get 2 cranes on the job, rent a lift, get a helo. Why is it on us to do the job cheaply? We aren't the ones who let this thing sit there dead for years and then want it down now. So you never change the oil in your truck. Neglect rite? Then it blows up and you want it repaired for the price of an oil change? BS. Homeowner neglect. It's not our responsibility to cushion the blow financially at the cost of our safety. Our industry doesn't get paid as it should due to this bidding practice. I better bid low because whoever tree company will get the job. Screw it, let them have it!! Then the homeowner will know when somebody gets killed or their property is trashed. Not my problem. I once bid a good job at a reasonable price. Somebody lowballed me by $75.00 The company who did the job pushed a large oak block off the spar onto a groundie. He didn't die but he was bad off. Had no workmans comp either. Customer called me and asked what they should do about the remainder of the tree. I did not finish it for them. Maybe because I asked if the $75.00 was worth all that or maybe because I told them I did not want the job. Who knows. I didn't even let the conversation get far enough to give a price. There is no fair market value for tree work from the consumers view point. We are expected to be cheap. Screw that, price it for what its worth no matter what the cost. We are talking about the health of our workers and the liability of our companies.
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Spot on perspective. Appreciate labor, not depreciate. Because few want to do it anymore, and it is our bodies, and lives at work.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
RopeShield said:
You have to pull from multiple directions
Remember if there is no movement you may have to push.
Think of it this way. We have all come across an old fence. You have to push and pull to see if it will stand up long enough to survive the tree operations. Push it one way seems solid and then you pull it the other way you see it is near failure.
See what mean. Tipping point
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This was discussed before. We can't push or pull because we're in a circumstance where failure is unacceptable, which is why it's not being dropped whole. It's like the distinction between rigging and climbing lines - yes, your life is way more important than the wood, but the house is way more important than the wood too. We have to have ropes for rigging that we'd trust with our lives. Likewise, in the end, there's no pushing/pulling dead trees unless we're dropping them at that moment.
 
RopeShield said:
Fear of dead trees is fear of lumber.
Illogical?
Test, observe and make knowledge based conclusions.
Take your time do over if you have to.
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Sorry, @RopeShield. I'm picking on you, but want to hear what you have to say. Does fear of lumber buried under the ground (roots) factor in as well? :)
 
Oroboros said:
Go into a forest and find dead trees of all sizes. Shake them, rope them, try and push them over. Climb on them and bounce around. Notice the tips if they break off. Notice the roots.
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This actually sounds like a really cool idea... If it were possible to find a kind of ideal situation whereby you were tied into one or more secure/live trees close by, and would be ready to take a swing into open air; finding a dead/rotten tree in the wild to test and abuse it with your weight, muscle, spurs, tie-in's and rigging in various different ways would be valuable experience. I'm aware that no one tree is the same, however... all knowledge is good knowledge.
 
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If your an employee out there like myself, a very helpful thing to do is establish an agreement with the sales staff about how YOU the field guy approach dead trees so the sales staff sells in accordance. Much like Steve said, my experience with dead trees is limited and I have no mentor so my philosophy has become decide whether or not I'm even goi g to go up, then start going up and inspect from there.
Most important part about my approach is that all parties involved (h.o. and sales people or my boss) know I reserve the right to call it and walk away at any point. That conversation is not one to be had on the jobsite because everyone can't help but be tickled by the thought that "well nothing's happened yet, your already up there...."
 
How dead is too dead? @colb
Testing to failure is obviously an option in some situations. When it's not you apply the forces necessary to make observations and place barriers, blocks, supports, redirects or whatever solution necessary to avoid collatera damage.
Sooooo it really is never too dead.
 

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