Ground Man article

I

IcePick

Location
Wisconsin
That article "how to become an excellent groundman" is unbelievably insane.

You show me a company, let alone an industry, that gives a about a worker like the "tree working groundman" and just maybe all you big headed climbers can muster up some egotistical inane like that.

That is written as if it's a privilege to be a career groundie in the tree industry.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

There are women who work in the industry so, to be inclusive, it makes more sense to include them.

What is so demeaning about being a career groundie? All of us have worked with groundies who are better workers than some prima dona climbers.

If a climber is not an excellent groundie first do they deserve to be a climber?

Over thirty years ago I was taught that 'a good groundie will make a bad climber look good'. The idea that a groundie needs to be on their game all of the time is not a new concept.

The concepts and principals of treework can be taught, learned and practiced first on the ground. Unless I knew a person's skills no one ever started their first day of work as a climber. Show me how you can handle a handsaw, chainsaw and the flow of work on the ground then you'll have the opportunity to go aloft.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

Tom, I couldn't agree with you more.

I always thought that Butch's article was the best ever for a ground worker to read.

If ground workers (as well as climbers) would follow half of the advice given in that article we would all be better off.

As a small business owner with only a couple of groundworkers working with me at any time, I can give them more guidence that maybe a larger company who may not have their ground workers best interests at heart.

IcePick,I'm not sure who you are refering to as "big headed climbers", but if you knew the person who wrote the article, I'm sure you wouldn't see him in that light as someone who thinks its a privilege to be a career ground worker, which he isn't by the way.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

That article is superb. No you can always do all that stuff all the time, but excellence at ANY job is doing all you can do as much of the time you can possibly do it.

Ground work SHOULD be a great job. Skilled ropers are are crucial for technical rigging, especially with structurally unsafe trees... their skills keep the climber alive and safe. Dragging and chipping is one of the hardest jobs a person can do... the pay should keep up.

Groundies should have training and certs just like climbers and they should be paid according to the value they provide.

It's sucks like hell that most companies treat groundies like day labor... but most hard jobs are thankless.

As for stuck up climbers, catch on, your stereotype is just that, stereotypical. Climbers don't get paid what they worth either compared to keyboard jockeys. There simply aren't very many people who are up to the job, regardless of how much training you give'em.

I pay my ground guys as much as I can afford, not the least I can get away with. I treat'em like partners, because that's what they are.

If you can't cut it, maybe you should sell fries and sodas, I hear it's the perfect job if you just don't give a damn whether you're any good or not.

Excellence is something you achieve more for yourself than for money.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

The article is a compilation of contributions from a thread on another forum. Most of the people who took the time to add a line were climbers who appreciate having a solid team mate working below them.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

Ground guys are just as important if not more important than a good climber. I thank my lucky stars everyday I am doing resi/commercial/crane work with my crew that I work with them. knowing where to cut a large piece when it comes down so it goes in the chipper the easiest way, and they don't have to drag 10 small pieces, having the smarts to second guess you on critical situations, running ropes so fluidily that the tree barely shivers nevermind shakes, knowing what needs to be done next and why!

all of our guys show up 15 mins early, bring lunch, never complain, always have the gear ready and trucks stocked, etc etc etc.....and they have never read this article.

Icepick I think you're wrong, sorry! our guys are the model ground guys and we treat them just like they deserve to be treated, with respect and admiration.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

Speaking as both the owner and main climber, I think that the article is good advice. I've given it to groundmen before. They are often keen to have such a simple format to gain tips from. There are so many run of the mill groundmen out there, (as there are run of the mill climbers). I try for excellence as a climber, as an owner, and when I was a full-time groundman or am just working on the ground now. I try for good training. I really don't need a lame brush dragger, I need good, or even better, excellent groundmen. The run of the mill types make way too many rookie mistakes again and again and again.

Icepick, where do you fit into the picture/ your perspective in the the day to day of treework operations? Are you a groundman, climber, owner, some of all, something else?

People should do what they to do their job well if they want to be employed. Who pays for the expensive chainsaw that falls to the ground when being pulled up the tree because someone decided to make up a knot because they don't know a standard knot applicable to the situation. How much easier does it get than a double half-hitch? Some groundmen without training will spend a full minute or more to try to get a rigging rope attached to the climbline, sometimes successfully, other times having it fall off or slide down. Can you say sheet bend or quick hitch. 5-10 seconds to tie, everytime. Easy, and predictable, to until. Efficiency is key.

How many run of the mill employees need to be reminded, (you will want to eat a lot during the day) bring food for ALL day, (you will want to be dry and warm all day) bring your raingear in the PNW? I don't keep people like that around. I see it as a good learning guide, and until there is a book in print for groundwork (as there is for being an excellent climber, rigger, pruner, etc), I'll use that well put together guide. By the time someone moves aloft into the trees, they SHOULD have all that groundwork/ basic employee conduct covered. Being a climber doesn't automatically mean that they HAVE it covered. I wouldn't rely on a climber than doesn't, nor a groundman.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

Ok ok, sure there are exceptions. I'm sure that "every" small business on this forum treats their ground workers like royalty.

But in the real world there are too many damn companies and guys that holler, spit on, cheat, mentally sometimes physically abuse their workers. I, however, work for a very solid company and couldn't have been more lucky to get on board when I did.

I agree with everything you guys said about a groundworker being vital to a tree working opertation. In no way shape or form am I bashing the groundworker. However that article (although just about perfect in the job description of a groundworker) is one step away from fascist(not really now). I kept waiting to get to the part where it was goona explain how to bend over and wipe in an upwards motion with three short strokes.

I've been a climber for ten years and even after all that time above ground, still need to devote full days to running the ropes, bucking up wood, loading wood, and dragging brush, and if I may be so bold, I'm pretty damn good at what is done above and on the ground in a tree working opertaion.

Anyway, what Vermeer and Arbormaster are doing with the groundworker classes (if they still do that or not?) are wonderful steps in the right direction for this industry. More formal training like that is neccessary.

As for "big-headed" climbers...come on! At any TCIA Expo one can almost choke to death on the insipid stench of egotistical climbers who forget once where they came from!
 
Re: Ground Worker article

[ QUOTE ]
As for "big-headed" climbers...come on! At any TCIA Expo one can almost choke to death on the insipid stench of egotistical climbers who forget once where they came from!

[/ QUOTE ]

What's with the attitude?

One - You've obviously got your own swollen ego since you're so good at everything.

Two - Nothing wrong with having an ego, ego is good... no ego = no confidence. It's out of control ego's that are a problem... you know, the ones that think THEY are the only one and everybody else is just a douchebag? "Ok ok, sure there are exceptions."

The point of the article is that the climber is leading the operation, he/she is under continuous stress while climbing and efficiency is key to a smooth, safe operation. It's up to the groundie to see that the climber has what he needs, when he needs it and wastes as little energy as possible. That ain't primadonna stuff, that's just the nature of tree work... it's how to get the job done.

I've seen guys dog cuss groundies and get impatient and hot headed... it always pisses me off. It's a pathetic excuse for leadership. But beyond that, I haven't seen any of the treatment you describe, I'm sure it happens but as far as I know, abuse is the exception.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

You're right, I do have an ego, and confidence to boot and will back it up anytime, anyplace.

Once again, I understand what you describe above, it is not a foreign concept to me on the climber/groundworker relation. If it was foreign I probably would have been gone bangin nails or working elsewhere a long time ago.

The whole point of my topic, I suppose, was to bash the concept of that article, not the actual article, but the manner it was written. Now I'm guessing I'm the first to do so on this forum so I apologize if offense is taken by the buzz brotherhood.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

I am definitely missing something here. why does the format in which the article was written bother you? is it too direct and too much like a manual of tree work? would you rather it was more vague and beat around the bush? do you not like the authors? do you have issues with authority?
 
Re: Ground Worker article

My business is small, myself one other climber and 2 fellows that help on the ground. I pay my guys allot so they are there when I need them and know they can't do any better somewhere else. Groundies or whatever you want to call them need to be knowledgeable of the work expected of them. The article describes it better than anything else available.
As a climber the importance of the people on the ground is evident to me everyday, I might run the job but they literally hold my life in their hands and the older I get the more important making it another day seems to me.
Hiring new people to work the ground scares me to death-
feeding the chipper, handling my rigging lines, everything has a potentiality of injury to me or to them-so anything that helps them do their job safely is welcome.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

Ok anyone what to hear a groundies perspective? If not stop reading here....

Ive read the article, and it's fairly obvious that there is good information in it. At times is seems nit picky, and I feel that there is alot that is just common since employee stuff. I've never liked rule books from employers that attempt to spell out every detail (personality flaw with authority). However I see both points of view that are being addressed in this thread and article. I see this article as being written from alot of climbers from their point of view and personal gripes about groundies. At times the article seems to be saying that the groundie is in charge of EVERY detail of the job, before, during, after, and the climbers job is just getting up into the tree. My take is that the article is compiled from may different climbers, and may different pet peeves are addressed.

Perhaps for entertainment and perspective there should be a article written by groundies for the climbers job? We could see how that reads. Or better yet let the groundies write an article for groundies and climbers write for climbers?

No I'm not volunteering for either job!
 
[ QUOTE ]
That article "how to become an excellent groundman" is unbelievably insane.

You show me a company, let alone an industry, that gives a about a worker like the "tree working groundman" and just maybe all you big headed climbers can muster up some egotistical inane like that.

That is written as if it's a privilege to be a career groundie in the tree industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

spam
 
Re: Ground Worker article

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps for entertainment and perspective there should be a article written by groundies for the climbers job? We could see how that reads. Or better yet let the groundies write an article for groundies and climbers write for climbers?

No I'm not volunteering for either job!

[/ QUOTE ]

Many complain, but few step up.
frown.gif


IcePick, some detail about what you don't like is needed. I like it becasue of its comprehensiveness, but maybe you take all those "should"s as "shall"s, and feel too much pressure is put on those professionals?
 
Re: Ground Worker article

Having been raised in this business, one main thing that was taught was how to be a superior ground person.
The ground guy has such an important job and is not for idiots.
Having climbed for over twenty-four years (still climbing) I know I rely on things going well to a well trained and educated ground person.

With my small business,I am encouraging my ground persons to become certified arborist, therefor making them more valuable to me and my company. It's much better having educated personal.
 
Re: Ground Worker article

Evo,

I hear you perspective. I must say that a lot of it also comes from a employer's perspective on what goals they have for employees to meet/ what makes an excellent employee. Clearly, the climber/ bucket operator/ crane operator/ stumper, planter, etc need to meet these same items of preparedness. Usually people start as a Groundie, and work their way up.

It could have been written as a two part guide or something similar, with one part being Employees in general, and the second as Ground Operations.


I think that guide is pretty comprehensive coverage for basic ground ops (not dealing with cranes, skidsteers, etc). Being excellent at ground operations means that climbers can focus more on things aloft, such as branch entanglements that can effect rigging or a top falling as needed into a tight spot, or a widowmaker that endangers workers below.

Sometimes the ground crew are just brush draggers, but oftentimes in my jobs, they are a very important part of the team that gets the job done well. I need ground people that can support the climber well, and work efficiently with ropes and rigging, manage brush effectively, and maintain the saws/ chipper/ stump grinder/ etc. Teamwork.

I nominate you to start the Groundie's/ Owner's Guide to an Excellent Climber.
I'll get you started.
#1 Groundies can't read a climber's mind.
#2 Remember, brush is heavy; wood is heavy. Climber's get to use gravity to their advantage oftentimes, whereas Groundies more often have to work against it.
#3 ...you're up!
 
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