Getting 8xEffort from 5xEffort pulley system

[*useless info*]

i have tried to describe this little marvel before, a true fave in utility and lesson.
More power instantly; from a deceivingly simple sleight of hand that body even sometimes covers from casual viewer as super power is applied!
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Of course no real magic, in fact just follows the rules and laws so consistently as to trace around counter-intuitive turns, but still stays so true to rules even tho counter-intuitive; comes back around to re-affirm basic lessons!
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Instead of deploying single input into system, use dual
>>make 2nd input at next highest input point , but in opposite direction
>>makes essentially 2 added systems, secondary input is simply to harvest equal and opposite 'lost' part of effort!
>>add bodyweight to main input, consider impact potentials, use legs as input(foot cam or loop)!!
Then attack even more aggressively and confidently with piercing purpose of sharp focused intention; that if anything can get it with what you got, this is tool chain set to leverage out your intent is the best,most efficient way!
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[evo]

I get it and think it’s pretty slic. However what I cannot wrap my head around is when pulling on a 5:1 I can use both hands and really dig my heels in and lean into it. This would make pushing with my other hand very inefficient taking the pull of my weight off the 5:1 side

I can see using a Prussic and another pulley which would direction adding more pull power and keep all input lines moving in the same direction. However this adds more links into the system with the loss of simplicity

 

[NateCharlton]

mind blown

What happens if you anchor the pull rope and exert perpendicular force?

 

[evo]

mind blown

What happens if you anchor the pull rope and exert perpendicular force?

Much gain

 

[NateCharlton]

Much gain

I need a dyno. I’m also wondering how much vertical force is converted to horizontal when a line is thrown over the top of a staub. Some experts say not much but I think much.

 

[evo]

I need a dyno. I’m also wondering how much vertical force is converted to horizontal when a line is thrown over the top of a staub. Some experts say not much but I think much.

Taking about a tag line?

 

[*useless info*]

Have to run to work, will answer more /later
>>horizontal pulls different gymnastics, so is usable per how set up own personal ergonomics
>>mostly used in climbing per last example D>
But applicable across the board!

 

[NateCharlton]

Taking about a tag line?

Yes

 

[evo]

Ok so when using a tag to pull a top, spar, chunk of wood, or a whole tree the higher the better (to a point).

The more horizontal the tag the more efficient the pulling power and the less force is directed down the stem, which translates to greater rotation.

However the lower the tag line the faster the pull. Say you have plenty of pulling power and cutting a back leaner with weak hindge wood. The lower the tag the less movement is needed to get the tree over its center of gravity.

The times when higher is not better is when dealing with super springy trees. Remember wood is flexible and you can get some snap back, or you can apply so much leverage you can over do the power of the saw and induce a barber chair.

Oftentimes 1/2 to 2/3 (leaning closer to 2/3’s) is the best placement for tops or whole trees. For wood and spars higher the better.

 

[NateCharlton]

I think the springy top/barber chair risk is mitigated by good coms with ground. “Don’t pull until I say so.”
SENA is a game changer for this.

What I’m talking about in spar work is the common practice of tying 3 feet below top and then run the line completely over the top. That is what converts some of the downward pull into horizontal pull. I’m just not sure how much difference it makes.

 

[evo]

I think the springy top/barber chair risk is mitigated by good coms with ground. “Don’t pull until I say so.”
SENA is a game changer for this.

What I’m talking about in spar work is the common practice of tying 3 feet below top and then run the line completely over the top. That is what converts some of the downward pull into horizontal pull. I’m just not sure how much difference it makes.

Also it has a higher chance of the knot landing on top, and not applying torsional forces

 

[*useless info*]

I think best leverage pull angle is perpendicular to present spar position.
>>lean of stick and fall changes this
i think should only pull to force greater hinge strength up until first movement to commitment
≥>then relieve extra load, like lifting off wedge does Naturally.
exercise to birth stronger, but don't then pull against stronger hinge (if set-up right)
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Thus pull to fall, to force strongest hinge
>>specifically don't look to counter side lean, not to unload it but rather grow hinge that can handle it
>>favor tapered hinge against sidelean, forced stronger by rope
>>let tapered hinge ballast sidelean to neutralize from equation
>>allow remaining forces to bring tree forward.
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2 reasons to not fall to easy forward lean:
A>practice
B>not fell directly into harshest hit force especially hard/heavy forward lean

 

[*useless info*]

i've been playing with this most my life,
started way before tree work, as a teen.
i thought i had 6 different strategies that helped me on a variety of tasks.
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In the end, i sifted them all down to the same rock solid principle;
that then expanded back out to more things and directions, with even more confident purpose.
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Sitting daily, in DdRT, showed the 2:1 over own bodyweight,
expanded to 2:1 over load + bodyweight
After defining all that was needed was a 1st class lever rigid or flexible to take 2 forces usually running away from work/wrong direction and re-direct against work
>>1st class lever magic is to reverse direction
>>so take equal and opposite(down) of effort(up), and make equal and opposite also pull up against load. Kinda use yin and yang of effort against load from the promised equal and opposite reaction. Add bodyweight.
Total 'Conservation of Forces' against load, ONLY 1 SINGLE ANCHOR/GROUND CONNECTION
>>then force compounded on self. FREE!
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Compounding pulleys, DdRT etc. is same principal/tool just slippedinto the machinery differently here and there. Correctly applied as maximum of bodyweight, effort and equal/opposite of effort from self as input.

If, can connive leg(200#), rather than arm(75#) input to double as effort and it's equal/opposite against work, potential outputjumpsfrom 300# for75# arm effort input and supporting equal /opposite thru bod back into system , to output potential of 550# for 200# leg input effort and likewise supporting equal /opposite thru bod back into system.
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It is a maximizing work style , usable in many ways.
Pulley trick and DdRT are just examples of the efficiency of conserving everything, even bodyweight against target along with effort-S, by having a 1st class lever in system
>>inputs and outputs on opposite side of most loaded point as pivot
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[*useless info*]

As a teen i stood on 1 side of trailer tire and pulled up on other, then using leg instead more powerful response.
>>in a none OSHA way(standing on large round in direction of travel) later years this got some big stuff started to then keep rolling
Also sat on 1 sideof T bar and pulled up on other.
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i also did this trick below on tying stuff down etc.
Thought they were different stuff, tricks to fight to remember and keep track of.
Later sitting in DdRT figured it was the same as them , and why, so could use in oodles more ways, with only 1 concept to remember, not 6.
Some find this thought path more complicated, but to me easier. Dig to the pivotals, and define to those basics.
For years now i can now readily see this on TV in some marital arts moves etc.
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Found/converted another old Flash item to youTube:

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Super Bob is the youngest/full growed now.
His elder brother Joey, just got back from Brazil showing them his engineering and computer programatic control of citrus plant work flow. Has a kid so has fallen out of years of Aikido(so to speak), Masters thesis in AI sensing and sorting of forms for mechanical controls. Joey worked with me some, took some TreeBuzz etc. posts with him to class, has reviewed many drawings, and even previously this movie.
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This chit really works, just like correctly aligning a pool shot correctly when situation presents!

 

[*useless info*]

Another usage of the key concept of a 1st class lever used to capture body weight + promised equal and opposite of effort to the feed back into system against target along w/original effort spent.
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This is opposed to just applying effort and your bodyweight and equal and opposite of effort bearing on the ground (as in when lift something).
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But has a key twist in climber usage with frictional support.
Whereby frictional rather than pulley support decreases effort needed to hold load and thus support loading as well.
BUT: fights pretension efforts directly to load side of line
This offers climber leg lift pretension , before support frictions, at better than hitch point leverage; then adds force parts that are lessened by support frictions tax
>> ground efforts, climber bodyweight and equal and opposite of effort.
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Also shows adding line leveraging /sweating/swigging to this critical side w/o friction tax of support. All these force volumes can be impacted in etc.
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I find this 'conservation of forces' to be the most efficient path .
'Closed' systems with only 1 ' ground connection' in electric schematic imagery focus virtually all forces from input to output w/o ' leakage' to ground.
Part of this imagery for me is using 110v + ground or both hots for 220v.
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This works with all 1st Class Levers : pivot between input/output.
>>key factor only lever class in/ out are in opposite directions
>>thus use this to capture equal/opposite of effort to place against load
>>bingo, 2x effort, bodyweight 'exerted' on whichever side is against load
So in flexibles that is pulley on non moving support as pivot point.
As in rigids this is see-saw of pivot between moving parts of in/out.

You apply force against load , capture equal opposite add bodyweight too against load as greatest conservation of static force etc.