Footlocking help
- Thread starter Weta
- Start date
- Location
- Austin, TX
Next thing Laz, you are going to say that competitions are not representative of typical daily working situations...
The comps do encourage good practice....good safety practices while pushing climbers safely to their physical limits.
I doubt Beddes und Co. or Chisolm and Co. work like that on a daily basis. Comps are comps daily work is daily work. Do you really think Mark C races up a 12 meter rope in 14 secs tree after tree, day after day???
Surely you have competed before, haven't you???
Joy, another so called, self promoted "expert".....
The comps do encourage good practice....good safety practices while pushing climbers safely to their physical limits.
I doubt Beddes und Co. or Chisolm and Co. work like that on a daily basis. Comps are comps daily work is daily work. Do you really think Mark C races up a 12 meter rope in 14 secs tree after tree, day after day???
Surely you have competed before, haven't you???
Joy, another so called, self promoted "expert".....
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
Sure Laz competed even went to the internationals in 93, I think.But he saw the light and the evils of footlocking.It broke down his body and made it hard to funtion(man I think this keyboard is doing the same to my Wrist).But he found new light and learned all his evils he was born again-hence the name lazarus 2-Jesus Christ brought Lazarus 1 back from the dead.Now with his new found knowledge and guru mentality, hes gonna right all the wrongs that have betrayed him and make this a safer place for all of us.Only problem is we dont all have the same body types or the proneness to injury that laz may have.I do respect what your trying to do laz but please quit relating your experience to mine.Ive been climbing as long as you if not longer(im a second generation arborist) and have not seen nor experienced the problems you have.The comps really help the industry as a whole and we all know theyre not perfect, but dont throw out the baby with the bath water.Please dont be argumentative just to when a battle thats a true injustice, like your bucket truck comment.Base your statements on facts or documented research not opinion or experience.Or if youd be honest that it is just an opinion, Id respect you even more.Like maybe footlocking is not bad on everyone,that is a fact not just and opinion.Some peoples boby types are more adapted to the strains of our industry than others.Some people never experience the problems you did, please except that as truth.Just like some peoples wrist do not hurt when they type but mine do(i guess footlocking caused that too).Wait stop typing its bad for you trust me I know and have experienced it myself right now in fact ,please.Wait maybe some humans wrist may never have problems typing and i should give a possible warning or relay my experience and not blanket everyone as being prone to the same things.Laz i hope i did not disrespect you but please think things thru a little more.Maybe get involved with the comp and help it move forward to progress the industry.If somethings maybe 75% still good why not use that forum to further your, cause your welcome to come to Texas and help us.Gosh my wrist really do hurt.P.s that started before I ever footlocked.
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
I also have an ergonomically designed keyboard and mouse,still hurt,goood posture to.We are not made to live on earth very long .No matter what we do we cannot escape our own mortality.Truth is we break down and wear out like everything else on this planet.Footlocking- help smooth is fast dont rush yourself and dont lean back.Cocentrate on good bites and progressively speed up as the rope gets heavier.smooth it will feel slow but the only time I ever got under 16s in the fifty was mistake free and felt like it was in slow motion.Keep your groin close to the rope.Warning you may get hurt footlocking but in my experience you may not,maybe throw off your chi off or whatever, heck I lost mine.
Our ergonomic message is not specific to me and my rehabilitation. It is based on sound physical fitness facts, as pointed out by a sound Remedial trainer from her experience dealing with Arborists. Your opinions are not based on the same experience, but of course they are common and you are entitled to them.
My initial reply to Weta's post is a valid and educated opinion, shared by a fully qualified and experienced remedial trainer. For HIS benefit.
It isn't my intention to wrestle with egos that are wrestling with some uncomfortable facts. This is a US based site. My insights have little credibility here. The UK is a very different work place to the US, with stringent regulations and established training system. A system I have contributed to extensively, along with many others that are unfortunately not so outspoken.
The overwhelming feedback I am receiving here, is that the majority of the signed up observers here, don't appreciate what I have to say.
However, you should know that there are those in the US who you will recognise as credible, that are working on a similar message.
I leave you with this:
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article9.html
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article10.html
I don't believe in Dogma. I believe in education, and in being pragmatic. Dogma (eg regulations) is required to set a base line of safety. Beyond that, in a risky business, you're pretty much on your own. That is why I have posted here - providing not generally known information, to enable those risking their life and general well being, to make a properly informed decision. Take it or leave it.
I don't want to get into a fight with 10 page explanations justifying a point. The limits of this form of communication and my style, I suppose! Its a shame, because to have the advice from someone like Davina would ordinarily cost an awful lot of money, probably after damage is done. We've passed on a lot for free.
I shall be spending time from now on compiling what we know, and presenting it through more suitable mediums.
Seasons greetings to all.
Take care.
Paolo.
My initial reply to Weta's post is a valid and educated opinion, shared by a fully qualified and experienced remedial trainer. For HIS benefit.
It isn't my intention to wrestle with egos that are wrestling with some uncomfortable facts. This is a US based site. My insights have little credibility here. The UK is a very different work place to the US, with stringent regulations and established training system. A system I have contributed to extensively, along with many others that are unfortunately not so outspoken.
The overwhelming feedback I am receiving here, is that the majority of the signed up observers here, don't appreciate what I have to say.
I leave you with this:
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article9.html
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article10.html
I don't believe in Dogma. I believe in education, and in being pragmatic. Dogma (eg regulations) is required to set a base line of safety. Beyond that, in a risky business, you're pretty much on your own. That is why I have posted here - providing not generally known information, to enable those risking their life and general well being, to make a properly informed decision. Take it or leave it.
I don't want to get into a fight with 10 page explanations justifying a point. The limits of this form of communication and my style, I suppose! Its a shame, because to have the advice from someone like Davina would ordinarily cost an awful lot of money, probably after damage is done. We've passed on a lot for free.
I shall be spending time from now on compiling what we know, and presenting it through more suitable mediums.
Seasons greetings to all.
Take care.
Paolo.
Riggs
Participating member
- Location
- Bryn Mawr , Pa.
Laz , don't be getting all salty now. Your insights are important , learn how to use them different. I hear what you are saying about footlocking , but that isn't what you want to hear when you want to win a footlock race . Get it ? Happy Holidays ! Lost my Fantasy football game , Harrison killed me, check you all out after the holidays .
- Location
- Hawaii
Yeah, laz no need to go anywhere I think everyone appreciates what you have to say... with your type of experience we'd be fools not to listen and take it in.
But also you had to anticipate that saying footlocking is no good in general is gonna get you into an arguement, it would be like telling everyone thirty years ago that they just should not use spikes in trees for pruning... you would have been thrown out and laughed at I'm sure (given I wasn't there...), maybe down the road footlocking will be a historic part of tree care but right now it's still very much a cornerstone of climbing... anyway don't go nowhere laz, we'd miss you...
jp
But also you had to anticipate that saying footlocking is no good in general is gonna get you into an arguement, it would be like telling everyone thirty years ago that they just should not use spikes in trees for pruning... you would have been thrown out and laughed at I'm sure (given I wasn't there...), maybe down the road footlocking will be a historic part of tree care but right now it's still very much a cornerstone of climbing... anyway don't go nowhere laz, we'd miss you...
jp
I know this is somewhat off topic, but there has been a fair discussion on bucket trucks/high lifts vs footlocking /climbing.
I for one find a high lift more difficult to work out of due to the fact I am 5'4". The rails of the lift are too high for me to lean over comfortably to cut. I end up having to hold the saw at mid chest to shoulder height thus putting a lot of strain on my upper arms/back and abs. I have on occasion stood on the lower rail to attain a better work position, definitely not a recommended practice! If it were not due to the safety of the tree (rotten, weak wood, lean) I would MUCH prefer to climb as it affords me better work positioning.
Just be aware that what you do can hurt you, sometimes it is unavoidable due to circumstances, be that fun, competition or necessity, but at least you know what to do to relive the pain and long term damage.
Peace & Love - Merry Christmas
I for one find a high lift more difficult to work out of due to the fact I am 5'4". The rails of the lift are too high for me to lean over comfortably to cut. I end up having to hold the saw at mid chest to shoulder height thus putting a lot of strain on my upper arms/back and abs. I have on occasion stood on the lower rail to attain a better work position, definitely not a recommended practice! If it were not due to the safety of the tree (rotten, weak wood, lean) I would MUCH prefer to climb as it affords me better work positioning.
Just be aware that what you do can hurt you, sometimes it is unavoidable due to circumstances, be that fun, competition or necessity, but at least you know what to do to relive the pain and long term damage.
Peace & Love - Merry Christmas
[ QUOTE ]
Our ergonomic message is not specific to me and my rehabilitation. It is based on sound physical fitness facts, as pointed out by a sound Remedial trainer from her experience dealing with Arborists. Your opinions are not based on the same experience, but of course they are common and you are entitled to them.
My initial reply to Weta's post is a valid and educated opinion, shared by a fully qualified and experienced remedial trainer. For HIS benefit.
It isn't my intention to wrestle with egos that are wrestling with some uncomfortable facts. This is a US based site. My insights have little credibility here. The UK is a very different work place to the US, with stringent regulations and established training system. A system I have contributed to extensively, along with many others that are unfortunately not so outspoken.
The overwhelming feedback I am receiving here, is that the majority of the signed up observers here, don't appreciate what I have to say.
However, you should know that there are those in the US who you will recognise as credible, that are working on a similar message.
I leave you with this:
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article9.html
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article10.html
I don't believe in Dogma. I believe in education, and in being pragmatic. Dogma (eg regulations) is required to set a base line of safety. Beyond that, in a risky business, you're pretty much on your own. That is why I have posted here - providing not generally known information, to enable those risking their life and general well being, to make a properly informed decision. Take it or leave it.
I don't want to get into a fight with 10 page explanations justifying a point. The limits of this form of communication and my style, I suppose! Its a shame, because to have the advice from someone like Davina would ordinarily cost an awful lot of money, probably after damage is done. We've passed on a lot for free.
I shall be spending time from now on compiling what we know, and presenting it through more suitable mediums.
Seasons greetings to all.
Take care.
Paolo.
[/ QUOTE ]
What a load of sanctimonius crap!
Your references to Quasemodo in your first article on treemettlenexus are disgusting.
You see fit to use an example of someone with a physical disability as an intelligent way of explaining your argument.....
Maybe you should work on your communication skills and we might be able to take something positive from what you have to say.
"We've passed on a lot for free"
Oh, we're so grateful you could give up your time and expertise for us, we are forever indebted to you.....pass me the sick bag.
This is a forum where people debate and discuss, just because someone disagrees with your obsessive rantings on ergonomics does not mean that there is no common ground.
You make the mistake of assuming that you have the answers to all our problems, and that we, the uneducated just cant understand you.
Your unwavering faith in your 'arborist ergonomics' message is borderline delusional.
You once said that you liked treework because it is hard on your body, this statement surely contradicts what you are trying to achieve.
The prevailing arboricultural industry worldview is one of progress towards a safer and more efficient workplace environment. We all want to get home safely to our family and loved ones at the end of each working day.......
But your 'arborist ergonomics' scientific orthodoxy claims authority over all our treeclimbing experience and knowledge. It would do you the world of good to develop a capacity for doubt. Its not us whose minds are closed.
Have you ever speculated about the possibility that you may be taking the wrong approach on this issue?
You obviously have a lot of enthusiasm for arboriculture, and are very keen to give your opinions on many different subjects.
Lazarus2, please dont push yourself to the margins of this industry with your obsession.
Take it easy friend
and
Merry Christmas
Our ergonomic message is not specific to me and my rehabilitation. It is based on sound physical fitness facts, as pointed out by a sound Remedial trainer from her experience dealing with Arborists. Your opinions are not based on the same experience, but of course they are common and you are entitled to them.
My initial reply to Weta's post is a valid and educated opinion, shared by a fully qualified and experienced remedial trainer. For HIS benefit.
It isn't my intention to wrestle with egos that are wrestling with some uncomfortable facts. This is a US based site. My insights have little credibility here. The UK is a very different work place to the US, with stringent regulations and established training system. A system I have contributed to extensively, along with many others that are unfortunately not so outspoken.
The overwhelming feedback I am receiving here, is that the majority of the signed up observers here, don't appreciate what I have to say.
I leave you with this:
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article9.html
http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article10.html
I don't believe in Dogma. I believe in education, and in being pragmatic. Dogma (eg regulations) is required to set a base line of safety. Beyond that, in a risky business, you're pretty much on your own. That is why I have posted here - providing not generally known information, to enable those risking their life and general well being, to make a properly informed decision. Take it or leave it.
I don't want to get into a fight with 10 page explanations justifying a point. The limits of this form of communication and my style, I suppose! Its a shame, because to have the advice from someone like Davina would ordinarily cost an awful lot of money, probably after damage is done. We've passed on a lot for free.
I shall be spending time from now on compiling what we know, and presenting it through more suitable mediums.
Seasons greetings to all.
Take care.
Paolo.
[/ QUOTE ]
What a load of sanctimonius crap!
Your references to Quasemodo in your first article on treemettlenexus are disgusting.
You see fit to use an example of someone with a physical disability as an intelligent way of explaining your argument.....
Maybe you should work on your communication skills and we might be able to take something positive from what you have to say.
"We've passed on a lot for free"
Oh, we're so grateful you could give up your time and expertise for us, we are forever indebted to you.....pass me the sick bag.
This is a forum where people debate and discuss, just because someone disagrees with your obsessive rantings on ergonomics does not mean that there is no common ground.
You make the mistake of assuming that you have the answers to all our problems, and that we, the uneducated just cant understand you.
Your unwavering faith in your 'arborist ergonomics' message is borderline delusional.
You once said that you liked treework because it is hard on your body, this statement surely contradicts what you are trying to achieve.
The prevailing arboricultural industry worldview is one of progress towards a safer and more efficient workplace environment. We all want to get home safely to our family and loved ones at the end of each working day.......
But your 'arborist ergonomics' scientific orthodoxy claims authority over all our treeclimbing experience and knowledge. It would do you the world of good to develop a capacity for doubt. Its not us whose minds are closed.
Have you ever speculated about the possibility that you may be taking the wrong approach on this issue?
You obviously have a lot of enthusiasm for arboriculture, and are very keen to give your opinions on many different subjects.
Lazarus2, please dont push yourself to the margins of this industry with your obsession.
Take it easy friend
and
Merry Christmas
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
Paolo,
Keep your skin thick and stick around. As you know, everything you say might not be praised by everyone, but by some. And we all have something to offer here in these discussions. You, I believe, have plenty!
Keep your skin thick and stick around. As you know, everything you say might not be praised by everyone, but by some. And we all have something to offer here in these discussions. You, I believe, have plenty!
- Location
- Longmont, CO
[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping that someone may be able to help out with a footlocking issue. When I practice at a steady pace, I never miss the rope, but in comps when I try to up the speed, I miss the rope - last time two misses in the one climb, which cost me first place. There was a rumour floating around when I trained at tech, that you could attach a biner or zip-tie to your boot and run the rope through that, and thus never miss. Could anyone verify this? It would be massive if somebody could also post a photo of the aforementioned technique, thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone gonna offer Weta any more help?
I'd say "perfect practice makes perfect." Like a freethrow in basketball, you eventually get muscle memory.
But, you are using a rope as an aid to climb vertically. That rope can flop a random way and you can miss any time. It happens to everyone. That is the imperfect side of footlocking.
I was hoping that someone may be able to help out with a footlocking issue. When I practice at a steady pace, I never miss the rope, but in comps when I try to up the speed, I miss the rope - last time two misses in the one climb, which cost me first place. There was a rumour floating around when I trained at tech, that you could attach a biner or zip-tie to your boot and run the rope through that, and thus never miss. Could anyone verify this? It would be massive if somebody could also post a photo of the aforementioned technique, thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone gonna offer Weta any more help?
I'd say "perfect practice makes perfect." Like a freethrow in basketball, you eventually get muscle memory.
But, you are using a rope as an aid to climb vertically. That rope can flop a random way and you can miss any time. It happens to everyone. That is the imperfect side of footlocking.
- Location
- Boulder County, CO.
I don't think it hurts to consider someone else's point of view when the tangential topic is our health. Sometimes a tangent provides a momentary opportunity for learning. I don't know that footlocking has hurt me, but I have listened to a similar argument on it before, from others as qualified as Paolo, and have to suspend my knee-jerk reaction to defend it. I still like to do it, in situations where I feel it is safe, because it is usually quicker to set up than a single line. But what is the harm in considering another viewpoint before moving on?
nothing wrong at all...if we didnt listen to every viewpoint put forward we wouldnt learn anythning. i think the point of the thread though was how to improve footlocking, not how to stop doing it altogether. maybe that should be a whole nother thread. i personally am looking forward to trying out paolos ascending methods and the only thing thats stopping me at the moment is a. missing a couple of key components and b. ive only just started competing and dont want my footlocking to suffer through lack of practise. Please dont be put of posting paolo, its pretty clear you're more intelligent than most of us here...particularly me
Er...
Never saw myself as a salty dilusional.
My last post was around ergonomics. I don't have the time lately to explain all the points raised effectively. Its clear there is some confusion as to what the ergonomic message is. It certainly isn't 'effort' based. Rather how the effort is 'executed', and then repeated, the dose creating a stronger poison. e.g. Forest harvest machine operators suffer risk of ergonomic injury as much as chainsaw operators, if they aren't seated correctly.
Awareness of your posture as it is and should be is the first step to remaining pain free.
Occasional footlocking coupled with various correction strategies will be less likely to be so detrimental. One sided bodythrusting will have a similar ill effect on at least the shoulder area. Look how many climbers have shared their shoulder rehab stories.
It may be that a climber has a regular gym session, or plays some sport, that unknown to them, keeps their muscular skeletal frame on an even keel. I know of such people. But its not typical. Typically, a climber will use bodythrust or footlock or spurs all day, most days, without any corrective exercise. It is better to avoid this situation. Training hard to be good at footlocking, will teach the body a dysfunctional muscle memory, and put excessive loads on the upper spine area, forcing the knees and ankles out of alignment, and then subjecting them to high loads. If this isn't corrected and compounded by the same daily technique, expect future problems.
Much has been covered in the health section.
We'll be using DVDs, books and workshops to do the job properly. Its good news just to have the issue discussed here. Awareness is key to injury avoidance.
Thanks for the kind comments; I wasn't expecting my dummy back dipped in brandy, but it'll go down well!
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
corrective training,please why not share some of those methods with those who will not stop footlocking.Why hold back on something that could really help and people would be open to.See what Beddes,Dan kraus and the big guy do to avoid all the problems you had.Our 1999 champ Guy leblanc has footlocked 30 years and never had a problem WHy?Maybe instead of droppping a practice lets discover why it does not effect some at all.What did you say about Bedddes in the post that was removed ,please help with footlocking.
Jimmy, I understand what you are saying, but its not so simple.
What I said about Beddes, was that he has always championed stretching and general well being in the few interviews I read. He also has excellent posture. He may also be genetically gifted. Our point of view is based on sound bio-mechanical funtion leading to general well being, rather than the alternative.
This cannot be explained here. You all need to 'see' it from someone like Dee.
Like I said, we will show you how to avoid these issues. But not here and now, through this limited medium.
I'm hanging my gloves up for christmas. Have a good time all!
What I said about Beddes, was that he has always championed stretching and general well being in the few interviews I read. He also has excellent posture. He may also be genetically gifted. Our point of view is based on sound bio-mechanical funtion leading to general well being, rather than the alternative.
This cannot be explained here. You all need to 'see' it from someone like Dee.
Like I said, we will show you how to avoid these issues. But not here and now, through this limited medium.
I'm hanging my gloves up for christmas. Have a good time all!
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm hanging my gloves up for christmas. Have a good time all!
[/ QUOTE ]
Laz thanks for the information you bring to the Buzz. There is hardly a more important subject in all of arboriculture than how we use our bodies to accomplish our task of caring for trees.
I'm hanging my gloves up for christmas. Have a good time all!
[/ QUOTE ]
Laz thanks for the information you bring to the Buzz. There is hardly a more important subject in all of arboriculture than how we use our bodies to accomplish our task of caring for trees.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
just as a little note in support of Lazarus. I am a footlocker who could never understand alternatives for climbing because footlocking is so easy and fast.
I recently have been feeling a little unstable in the knees however, and about three weeks ago after foot locking up 5 80 foot oaks on friday. Blew out my knee playing basketball on saturday. You might blame it on basketball, but I think that I will put the blame on footlocking on Friday. I had come home that friday evening and my knee felt out of align and clicking sort of.
That was compounded by the quick cutting of basketball and I was laid out on the ground. So here I am, on a weekday at 10:30, at the computer making no money.
When I recover, I cannot say I will entirely give up footlocking because it is fun, fast, and you all know. But, I will definitly explore the alternatives. Likewise, I wont give up basketball but I probably will shoot more set shoots and drive to the hole a little less. Maybe? right now I will just focus on regaining full mobility and try to be healthy.
I recently have been feeling a little unstable in the knees however, and about three weeks ago after foot locking up 5 80 foot oaks on friday. Blew out my knee playing basketball on saturday. You might blame it on basketball, but I think that I will put the blame on footlocking on Friday. I had come home that friday evening and my knee felt out of align and clicking sort of.
That was compounded by the quick cutting of basketball and I was laid out on the ground. So here I am, on a weekday at 10:30, at the computer making no money.
When I recover, I cannot say I will entirely give up footlocking because it is fun, fast, and you all know. But, I will definitly explore the alternatives. Likewise, I wont give up basketball but I probably will shoot more set shoots and drive to the hole a little less. Maybe? right now I will just focus on regaining full mobility and try to be healthy.
- Location
- SE UK
[ QUOTE ]
i for one think it would be a shame to take it out of the comps
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure mate
might help you out a bit next year if they binned it
i for one think it would be a shame to take it out of the comps
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure mate
sharp witted as usual mathew...only took you 17 days to think of that one
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