Ethics in Business

L

Leroy

Carpal tunnel level member
Location
Fresno
At what point to people decide it is okay to mislead, lie, cheat, exploit, or otherwise just be terribly annoying and harassing??

Examples, big. Homeadvisor, yelp. I feel I have told representatives on the phone and via email maybe 100 times each that I am not interested in advertising with them or registering as a contractor in their system. Still, they call or email weekly, can't they get the message? I feel harassed, if homeadvisor were a person I would feel inclined to punch them in the nose.

Examples, small. Local competitors, pay people with address in town to register business with google in town, though they are actually from some far off place. As we all know, the idea with listing preference is to award local people in searches. Some choose to be dishonest and misleading all for an internet search...

People are crazy, yes, so am I. A local competitor who claims to be the greatest thing that ever happened to trees and has a great rep, saw a quote from him the other day, proposed to spray fresh cuts on a tree with Lysol to sanitize the wounds... umm, wtf, just venting here, nice guys finish last?

Does being fair and honest in business predispose you to ultimate failure? Do you need to lie and cheat to succeed in this world??

Of course, like everyone else, I feel we are fair and honest in our business, and somehow we have had great success, though I feel it would be a whole lot easier and even more fun if we weren't up against all this nonsense. I don't see how a well intending Arborist can make a career or lifestyle out of this. Not only is the public in general misinformed but others in our trade are actively spreading falsities and misinformation constantly.

I commend those who make a career of this and always try to do the right thing, you have far more dedication than I!
 
Levi.CO said:
....

Does being fair and honest in business predispose you to ultimate failure? Do you need to lie and cheat to succeed in this world??
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There is a quick path to short-term profits (I started to type "success", but I'd take objection to the use of that word here) and a tougher road to long-term success (of which profit is one factor). Far too many choose the quick path then go looking for another when that one hits a dead end.

I think we see this with big companies because they are forced to sell, sell, sell. You get a new guy who doesn't know anybody and he needs to turn in sales numbers that matched the old guy that everybody knew...suddenly, every shrub in every yard needs sprayed 3 times a year.

Small companies: some people are just low class individuals.

Keep doing what you know to be best - the pillow is softer at night and you don't have to look over your shoulder everywhere you go!
 
ATH said:
There is a quick path to short-term profits (I started to type "success", but I'd take objection to the use of that word here) and a tougher road to long-term success (of which profit is one factor). Far too many choose the quick path then go looking for another when that one hits a dead end.

I think we see this with big companies because they are forced to sell, sell, sell. You get a new guy who doesn't know anybody and he needs to turn in sales numbers that matched the old guy that everybody knew...suddenly, every shrub in every yard needs sprayed 3 times a year.

Small companies: some people are just low class individuals.

Keep doing what you know to be best - the pillow is softer at night and you don't have to look over your shoulder everywhere you go!
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Yes, well said and thank you. I hear ya, just needed to bitch a bit I guess. I feel better now, haha!
 
I'm in year five and have plenty of work. I showed up to a job site this week where the clients were scared of making decisions - had been for several months while they studied the same scope and asked rabbit hole questions. I had a ground employee on the clock. They decided to indefinitely delay the removal of a 12" black cherry and a 18" laurel oak in a back yard and just make two structural corrections in a large live oak over their house. They were apologizing for the waffling and I was going to lose money. I could have easily pressured them to follow through with the removals on grounds of my employee being there for that, or reasoned argument based on the structure and health of the cherry and laurel oak. Instead I told them that they should not have the trees removed unless they were at peace with it, that the trees were not an immediate hazard, that they should plant something cool back there, and that I wanted to prune their japanese maples when they had discretionary income for it.

I set a line in the live oak and ascended to 20' to cut and chuck half of a 10" diameter crossed branch that was rubbing against a second branch. Used my hook to get to the tips. I noticed the neighbor checking us out. I rigged most of the other half of the limb on a rope and had my ground guy lower it whole, then made a thin slice finishing cut. I used my tail to control my swing onto the roof, then ascended 25' to my TIP. Temporarily advanced my TIP 8' to just above a triple junction and set up a zipline to the culdesac. A tree crew working on the other neighbor's lot lost it and lined up with cell phones to record this... Quietest part of the day, lol. We sent the 6" diameter branch from the center of the house onto the lawn, I made two more cuts to toss a stub and finish it, and ended up with a nice 40° branch angle with a fully subordinated limb that had great access to sunlight.

When I came to ground the first neighbor requested pruning on the same live oak over his garage and paid cash.

I made 2/3rds my target day rate that day (which is survivable), gained a new client, pleased my current client, enjoyed two great work climbs, and hopefully raised the bar for the local tree crew.

Good things happen when you do you.
 
Levi. I feel you. I am in a pest control contract for my house I got from a door to door guy. He came at the perfect time since I was already looking. I wanted to make sure I was dealing with a Mom and Pop outfit not a national chain. He assured me they were local and just trying to move into another city. I checked them out on the web and signed the contract. Come to find out when I started getting my billing they were a national chain. They have an office locally and it didn't come up on google as a big chain. I feel swindled. They are doing good work so thats a plus but I wanted to put money back into the local economy. I hate chains no matter what (except the evil starbucks,,,whole other story and debate I'm addicted to their dope).

The other issue is trying to manage a biz as a sub. People will take a mile if you give them an inch. They'll soak you for free time, risk damaging your shit with poor work planning, and put you in a position where you could be involved in a workplace accident you'll surely get dragged into. Initially I felt badly for these guys and tried to help them. I let people who've never slung wood make crane picks and try to coach them. I've cut out a travel charge because I know they ate shit on the bid because they are green and should be bagging groceries instead of tree work. The end result is stress for me. Missed time at home and costly repairs to my equipment.

It's been a hard decision to make but no more. No breaks, no borrowing my saws or gas. If you didn't make sure the rite equipment was on site or didn't plan the job, not my problem. If you've never done crane work and I can tell you are clueless you're not making picks with my crane. I'll bring my own climber for $350 a day and train you while he's there. I watched a guy take a 30' fall because he didn't know how to tie into a spar. No more......

Trying to take the high road and help those starting out is costing me more than money and time. What I am saying is in life I feel like the nice guy, operating with compassion, empathy and morals gets taken advantage of. Exactly why I changed from day rates to hourly.
 
I tell my guys always do the right thing. Then at least we can feel good at the end of the day. When I am estimating I am interviewing the potential client just as much as they are interviewing me. If I get a bad vibe I just price myself out of it or make it worth my while to take the risk of doing business with them.

The day rate as far as I can see, can still work for crane work. Every business transaction needs to be fair for both parties for the relationship to last. Strict guidelines must be set to keep it fair. Tree contractor lets you know how long they need the crane. 1/2 day is 4 hours travel time and setup included so in reality 2.5 working hours. Full day realistically 6 Hrs crane time figuring lunch in as well after that it’s hourly OT. . If they don’t know what a crane can and can’t do and timeframes they have no business working with one or complaining of the cost. We do precision work with catostrophic consequences if something goes wrong. That’s what I like about treework. I own a k boom but still rent stick cranes and it’s set out as stated above. I control the pace of the job. SLOWER IS FASTER. If the client is rushing you to get a full day job done in a 1/2 day they didn’ t bid it right. It’s not worth the stress.
 
evo said:
I paint my fresh pruning wounds with the blood of sacrificed puppies. But only named Christmas puppies taken from children under the age of 12. It’s a hormone tear thing that helps trees heal.
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Now that is some ethical shit right there!
 
guymayor said:
Hung up on yelp today.
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I actually got them to hang up on me a couple of years ago. :burlas: He kept asking how much more business I could take on, and I kept saying "none...I'm booked out for 2 months". Not that they haven't called back again, and again. I just tell them "No thank you. I'm not interested."

I've given up trying not to hang up on telemarketers. If it is a real person I'll be polite (well, besides the Indian guy named Hank or John or Max selling pharmaceuticals...) and let them know I am not interested once or twice, but if they keep going ....click. The speed with which I can hang up on a recording has become a game.

Hope that isn't unethical of me.
 
Had an old lady stroll out on us last week while doing a small crabapple prune. Internally I always have the reaction what is she going to want. It's just my instant reaction. Can't we just work in peace? And what do they want for free?
Well I'm a super nice guy. I'm willing to help a person out. She talked about an ash limb that she has been trying to pull down all summer but it won't go. Well I look over and the tips are barely over the roof. So I said I'll take a look after we wrap up this job. She said I'll make sure your compensated. My coworker and I walk over with the extendable notch Pole saw and realize it's not that bad. Make the quick cut and walk to the front. We weren't going to take money on that one. I just hope she helps someone else out in a way only she can.
I know I need to be better on my internal first reactions. It never shows in person but sometimes I wonder why I always think that way first.



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I think all it takes is one time having someone yell at you for: making noise. Do you have a permit for that? Do you know what time it is you noisy bastard! Anything like that and then you’re suspicious of everybody until they reveal their intentions. At least I am.
 
I may be just be a grouchy old bastard....but I rarely am polite to telemarketers.
When I think about how marketing lists are sold and resold I would be amazed if most of the larger call centers do not have some type of ratings system where the more polite and longer you are the better you are rated in their system for resale of your name....so they IMO best thing to do is hang up immediately.
PS After following this procedure for years I very rarely get telemarketing calls anymore, whereas several friends in the same age/area/economic group are pounded relentlessly.
 
I was wondering if there were any posts here about ethics etc, found this ol gem!

Just been thinking about the "(un)level playing field" that exists in my market. I've always thought the the public must think arborists are crazy after talking to a few of us... I feel bad for homeowners when I see them in the yard with the "sales arborist"

It's crazy to hear the claims made by some competitors "that tree will be dead in 2 years if you don't do xyz..." I'm looking at this old apple tree thinking, why? Not cool to use fear tactics imo.

I saw some dudes injecting honey locust trees at an HOA near my house so I asked em what they were up to (politely, after offering water) they said "injecting these trees for emerald ash borer." I said "oh, with what." They said "Idk, this stuff." And showed me a bottle of G4. This company leans hard on the ISA branding to promote themselves, seems like they skipped some chapters though!

Then there's the slander, what a bold thing to do! Recently lost respect for some local arbs who I found out were trashing the competition as a sales technique? Yikes. No matter how bad I think an outfit is I refuse to trash anyone to clients. I'll talk shit all day among friends, way too much probably. But going to the public with that is low down and dirty. :ROFLMAO:

Anyways, thanks for reading this completely confused and unsolicited rant!
 
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levi r said:
I was wondering if there were any posts here about ethics etc, found this ol gem!

Just been thinking about the "(un)level playing field" that exists in my market. I've always thought the the public must think arborists are crazy after talking to a few of us... I feel bad for homeowners when I see them in the yard with the "sales arborist"

It's crazy to hear the claims made by some competitors "that tree will be dead in 2 years if you don't do xyz..." I'm looking at this old apple tree thinking, why? Not cool to use fear tactics imo.

I saw some dudes injecting honey locust trees at an HOA near my house so I asked em what they were up to (politely, after offering water) they said "injecting these trees for emerald ash borer." I said "oh, with what." They said "Idk, this stuff." And showed me a bottle of G4. This company leans hard on the ISA branding to promote themselves, seems like they skipped some chapters though!

Then there's the slander, what a bold thing to do! Recently lost respect for some local arbs who I found out were trashing the competition as a sales technique? Yikes. No matter how bad I think an outfit is I refuse to trash anyone to clients. I'll talk shit all day among friends, way too much probably. But going to the public with that is low down and dirty. :ROFLMAO:

Anyways, thanks for reading this completely confused and unsolicited rant!
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Yeah this is rampant.
We have a company that injects and does herbicides. They dumb it down with smooth talk such as ‘vitamin injection’ and we come by well after the fact to remove a nearly dead tree. Another example was a consult/second opinion where they were proposing mowing everything down on an unstable slope. The alders were spec’d for paining the stumps with stuff that will slow and limit regrowth (PGRs), and the rest was a broadcast spray of pre emergent and post emergent magic juice.
Spoke with the client and said something along the lines of “looks like they are dousing chemicals all over” the reply I got was defensive and boarderline argumentative, “on no, we are organic and don’t use herbicides.” This then lead to a long conversation on what pre emergent and post emergent actually are, and how the ‘herbicide’ was omitted. Their jaws hit the floor.

I’ve found targeted advertising works very well. Wind sailing was a common fear sell here, until I started advertising contrary ‘we don’t do harmful practices such as topping or wind sailing’. Not sure how much this changed their ways but they did change their advertising about 4 months after mine went out.
 
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