Cocoon Pulley

ROYCE

ROYCE

Carpal tunnel level member
Location
Vermont
My question is this, the new cocoon pulley is rated for 22KN which is equal to 4950 lbs. Is this okay to use in compatition, and if so, then could i climb off a fixie pulley which is rated the same? It was my understanding that the ANSI standards were 5000 lbs for hardware like this. I know it is only 50lbs off, but in comp. they might re-ject this.

If you can understand this, i would use this in the following application.

Set my line, tie the cocoon pulley onto my rope the same way i would a prussic. Then i would take a second rope and run that through the pulley and get tied in. This way i can footlock up, and at any time bail, or in the aerial resuce event where the line is already set for you, its much easier to get to the top, and pick your route.

So, would this be an okay application and would the ITCC judges okay the cocoon to be used this way?
 
You can use any pulley in this way. The important thing is to back it up with a spike below it or other knot. The ITCC rules on this are a little sketchy in my opinion due to the fact that there rules and regulations are different than ours. The change is working on being made as I understand it. As a TCC judge and tech it differs from state to state on what people allow. It would have to go to the head judge on what they're going to allow. There was debate about the treemotion when it came out. My friend Cory was not allowed to use the fixe at competition other than a slack tender.
 
Yeah, i too have heard stories of people being denied the use of the fixie pulley. I now question that as the cocoon is rate the same!! I understand the spike in the line, just was curious about the KN thing.

The real reason i ask is i would like to use a fixie pulley the same way people are usieng the cocoon, but do not want to be dis-qualified. I guess i just check with the head judge on this the day of comp.
 
In the USA, ISA chapter comps should abide by the ANSI Z133.1 standard which is 23kN. 22kN is 4945.6 pounds. I agree that it is a stupid rule.
I plan on addressing this at the Z meeting in April. I am proposing to lower the hardware standard to 22kN. It is on the agenda as of today.
 
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In the USA, ISA chapter comps should abide by the ANSI Z133.1 standard which is 23kN. 22kN is 4945.6 pounds. I agree that it is a stupid rule.
I plan on addressing this at the Z meeting in April. I am proposing to lower the hardware standard to 22kN. It is on the agenda as of today.

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Thank you Norm, It will be interesting to see what comes of this. It's just a little weird to me thats all
 
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In the USA, ISA chapter comps should abide by the ANSI Z133.1 standard which is 23kN. 22kN is 4945.6 pounds. I agree that it is a stupid rule.
I plan on addressing this at the Z meeting in April. I am proposing to lower the hardware standard to 22kN. It is on the agenda as of today.

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that would be great!
 
When I looked at the Z:

8.1.10 and 8.1.11 both require snap hooks and carainers to be rated at 22.24,

8.1.13 states: " All load-bearing components of the climbing system shall meet the minimum stadards for arborist climbing equipment."

I couldn't find 23kn mentioned or the definition of "arborist climbing equipment" in the Z.

is the 23kn referenced in the 07(08) ITCC rulebook?
 
2.2.2 All equipment shall be manufactured to meet or exceed the minimum accepted industry safety standard unless otherwise specified in this document. Equipment must be considered appropriate for use in tree climbing. (This determination shall be made by the head judge.) If equipment is not clearly labeled to provide an industry standard mark, it is the competitor’s responsibility to provide evidence to the head judge that the equipment is manufactured to meet the accepted standard for that piece of equipment and its application. (2007)

This is taken out of the most recent rules for the ITCC. The minimun in our industry to my knowledge was 5,000 lbs for connecting devices, and 5400 for your climbing line.

If 5,000 is the minimum and a Kilonewton is approx. 225 lbs then a pulley that is rated for 22KN would be equal to 4950, which would be 50lbs under the minimum of our industy standard. Which would tell me that anything rated to 22KN, weather it a pulley, carabiner, eye-eye prussik would not be suitable for compatition. Maybe this has changed as i do not have the most recent ANSI standards in front of me!!

This is what Iam trying to determine.

Pancake what do you mean by rated at 22.24? Is that 22.24 KN and if so i have never sean it like that before, maybe that is new. very interesting. It's just i have never sean a carabiner rated with a decimal point.
 
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Pancake what do you mean by rated at 22.24? Is that 22.24 KN and if so i have never sean it like that before, maybe that is new. very interesting. It's just i have never sean a carabiner rated with a decimal point.

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That is what the Z states for carabiners and snap locks. As a Head Judge I would not allow equipment rated under 22.24kn to be used.



50 pounds can turn into 600 pounds very fast in a dynamic situation.


Norm and Mahk et al. What about using approach shoes in competition? ITCC rules: 2.2.17-20, particularly 2.2.20 is where I think the exception could be made.
 
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Pancake what do you mean by rated at 22.24? Is that 22.24 KN and if so i have never sean it like that before, maybe that is new. very interesting. It's just i have never sean a carabiner rated with a decimal point.

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One kilonewton is 224.8 pounds (actually pounds force, but that's another matter).

5,000 pounds is the minimum required by ANSI for life-support hardware.

5,000 pounds divided by 224.8 (one kilonewton) is 22.242.

Thus 5,000 pounds is approximately equal to 22.24 kilonewtons, the number Keith quoted from ANSI. Since, as you noted, hardware is generally not rated down to decimal points, 23 kN is the minimum rating that is typically required.

Many pieces of hardware that are manufactured in Europe are rated at 22 kN.

22 kN times 224.8 = 4,945.6 pounds, which is 54.4 pounds shy of the 5,000 pounds required by ANSI.

Strictly speaking, any piece of hardware that is rated at 22 kN (or lower) should not be used for life support in a work situation in the tree industry in the US. But, interpretations at TCCs have been varied. Some view a TCC as a 'recreational event' and so allow some slack in applying the Z. Others have allowed gear that meets the European standards if there is no equivalent type of product that has been manufactured in the US.

If there were no allowances (and oversights) made for items that are rated at 22 kN then US climbers would have to relenquish use of many items that are employed in day-to-day tree work. The Cocoon, the early Rope Guide, most ascenders, and a variety of mechanical devices would have to be removed from service.

Norm you've chosen a heavy, contentious topic, but I agree with your point and wish you success.
 
But 5000 is such a nice round number! Who cares what the other vertical rope disciplines have been doing for decades...

I agree you have to draw a line in the sand but so much of the rock climbing/mountaineering gear is reated at 22kn. It's almost like they know what they are talking about or something.

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22kn would be A-OK with this guy
 
We as tree guys are sooooo paranoid about weight ratings, but with what we do and the manner in which we climb individually, kn is kind of a non issue until falling. I personally am not concerned about hitting the ground nearly as much as hitting my saddle. this kind of impact, regardless of the saddle you climb in is devastating. I would rather see us swayed toward creating a fall arrest type prussick or rope termination that will absorb the shock of a short fall than cry about kn ratings on a pulley. just my 2 cents, sorry to rant!
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I am not a kn freak, the only point I am trying to make is that 50 lbs can grow exponentially fast in a fall. Mahk- will you be showing slack or leinancy at future comps? What about small tech cords that come in 100 lbs or so under 5K? An example of a use for this cord would be a small prusik on the work positioning lanyard to correctly spread the load on a biner/snap hook as it is girth hitched around a limb to use the lanyard at a second line. (I am sure there is an acronym or name for this setup that I don't know)
 
I'm just trying to figure out what will/ will not be alloud in comp. I don't care about a work situation, as 50 lbs will not make a difference to me. I will climb on 22kn all day long. I just don't want to be DQ out of Comp for it.

Thank you Mahk that pretty much sums it up for me.
 
What about a Marmot figure 8? It is rated but not stamped with an ANSI mark, it was a no go last year. Also the ATC- what about that nice piece of gear? Maybe Mahk could elaborate on "slack" more- at least not at a comp I have ever been at where you judged!!!
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I like the cocoon and would love to use it in a competition AR, maybe the rules will be addressed. I would like to hear Norm/Mahk/Tom's take on the weight increase involved with fall factors.
 
Yeah pancake i agree, there are a lot of cool gadgets that are not stamped with ANSI 23 kn approval. I would like to use a fixie pulley for the aerial rescue that is rated for 22kn the same as the cocoon pulley!! I'm curious to see if our New England Chapter allows the cocoon pulley.

I personally do not care about the differnece of 50kn of force. Even in a fall situation i have a hard time believeing that the extra 50kn of force rated for my equipment will save my life. Look at the safety factory your working with, it's close to 5,000 lbs. I mean come on!!!
 
I hear you. I want everyone to be safe regardless of work or play. Just think of all the cool gear we will be able to use at work if they drop the rating to 22kn- which I feel more than safe climbing on. I am referring to 50 pounds not kn's. There is a calculation that shows how 50 pounds can very quickly turn into 600 or 1000 pounds in a very short distance. I believe the human spine is only rated for 12 or 13 kn. I will try to find you some information links with regards to fall factors and you may change your mind. Personally I think 22kn is enormous overkill, maybe it is an insurance issue, or a fear of liability factor from the ANSI Board Members, I believe there is a disclosure clause in the front of the Z however. The standards aren't law.
 
I hear you!!! How often are you setting yourself up for a fall that will generate 1000 lbs on your system? We're working in trees not climbing rocks.
 
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