Climber/crane connection

[Louie_Hampton]

Mark,

I watched your crane video the other evening. I was encouraged that with our limited experience to date with this method of removal, we seem to be on the right track in our use and precautions.

Would you mind explaining the method you used for attaching your climbing system to the crane. It appears as if you were attached to the hook, the block, and the cable. I'm all for redundancy in safety, but the set-up looks cumbersome. What am I missing?

Louie Hampton
BTW, it IS worth the money.

 

[Treefrog]

Heya, I'm a newbie to the board and recently did a crane removal of a large dead Poplar in proximity to energized conductors.My attachment point to the crane was on the end of the boom, next to the end roller where the cable descends from the crane.The attachment point (clevis) on the boom of the crane is used as a false crotch and the rest of my climbing sustem is basically the same.I used the hook to get up into the tree, and when material was being supported by the crane prior to cutting, I was slung into the tree, with the climbing line detached from my saddle.Thus, when the piece detached from the main stem, my climbing line went with the crane, and was returned to me with the cable sling and tag line for the next section to be removed.I would then re-attach the climbing line to my saddle, position the boom over the next sling point, and climb up to this point taking up slack in my climbing line as I go. Hope this helps.

 

[MrPez]

I haven't seen the video, but I've had enough close escapes with cranes to learn a thing or two. Always avoid placing the climbing line anywhere that it could be pinched by the rigging. The way I work with cranes is with two climbers:
The climber and chain man go up together. The cutter descends to the work position and unties from the crane. In most situations, I think leaving the line on the boom is a recipe for disaster. I always re-route it to the ground.

The chain man then uses the jib to position above the chaining point on a branch. He places and tensions the chain, checks the balance and then descends to the ground and pulls out his line before cutting commences.

By the time the piece reaches the ground, the chain man has his rope stuffed in the bag ready to go up with the crane for the next piece.

 

[BigJon]

Mr. Pez, I have done a few crane removals in that manner and it worked well. It is a alot of hussle for the man setting the straps having to pull his rope out and get out of the way. He would then take off his saddle and then begin bucking brush, and then beging the whole process over again. I really seemed to get bored up there though.

 

[treeclimber165]

I've done well over 150 removals using a crane, usually a 35 ton with 95' of stick (plus deadman and/or jib when needed). I've used 65 ton cranes also, usually when reaching backyard trees from the street.
I have never worked a removal while tied into a crane. I have ridden the hook (tied in with lifeline and lanyard) from the ground to get into the tree and save myself a 60' ascent, but I have always been able to tie into the tree and stay tied in for the whole job. I can set my own straps/cables and make all the cuts while tied into the tree. It is very easy for one man to do all that and keep a full crew sweating on the ground for a few hours straight.
I have always tried to tie in on the opposite side of the tree from the crane so my lifeline and his boom weren't competing for the same space. When rigging the lead I was tied into, I would set the cable then descend to where I would make my cut on my lifeline. Then I would remove my lifeline and retie below my cut spot.
I wouldn't feel safe being tied into a 95' boom being controlled by someone else. I'll stay tied into the tree, thank you very much. I would think a new climber reading this thread might get the idea that tying into the boom on a crane removal was standard operating procedure. I have never found it necessary.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I'm with Brian on this setup. Makes for a little more climbing for me in the tree but I generally don't have the luxury of having another climber with enough crane experience to use as a runner.

Tom

 

[Riggs]

Having a guy ride the crane up to choke a piece is the ticket . In this picture he is tied into the main hook , when he gets in position the crane operator lowers the sling on the other cable.

[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Riggs ]

 

[treeclimber165]

Looks like fun, but I have two really big problems with it.
1) I'm a control freak. When my life is on the line, I trust myself and my personal equipment. Placing my life in the hands of some stranger operating the controls does not come easily for me. I have no idea if he had a fight with his old lady last night, and whether his mind is on his work (my life).
2) Crane removals are about as easy as it gets for climbers. The ground guys are the ones busting butt. To whine that I need a second guy riding the hook because I'm not willing to hoof out the limbs and set my own cable is not acceptable. I got nothing better to do while the ground crew is busting butt. Besides, if I'm cutting the limb, I want to personally inspect the attachment point to the cable before cutting (that control issue again).
What else am I going to do if I'm not setting the cable before cutting? I already smoke two packs a day. I'd get bored waiting for 8 minutes between every cut just to run a saw for a minute then sit and wait again. Heck, you can train a monkey to do that, and get down and actually do some WORK!

I wouldn't have posted on this if I didn't feel 100% qualified to do so. I feel that I am about as efficient as they get on crane removals, and have had numerous crane operators and other experienced tree guys tell me so. I have watched several crane removals with other climbers, and have yet to see one faster or more efficient than myself. No brag, just fact. Spending the day riding the crane hook is a waste of time and manpower.

 

[Riggs]

Well in that tree's case , the whole top was cut first , just had to ; and that left no walking out limbs . Also when Pete got to the ground he removed his line from the hook and sat in his New Holland , not one minute was wasted . If your scared don't do it , or get an operator you trust .

 

[BigJon]

Riggs, doesn't that sound familiar. Remember the guy in Philly during the work climb who told you he was scared and never been in tree that large? What did tell him?

 

[Louie_Hampton]

My question about the tie in to the crane is specific to the video. I'm wondering about the method used and the reasoning behind it.

We typically work heavily landscaped, high end residential properties. Access/landing areas are limited. We normally climb and rope down most everything. We don't have an aerial lift, on most of our jobs we couldn't use it anyhow. Our crane work to date has been limited to big trees in tighter than normal quarters. 36" Pecan three feet from a two story home, zero lot line, fence cut around the tree, narrow gate, neighbors house within arms reach. Or, 24" Elm, broken 16" below grade (filled) right next to two story home, leaning on gutters and tangled in canopy of adjacent tree. Those are two examples of the ten or twelve crane jobs we have worked in the last two years. We have only brought in the crane when our normal 'prefered' method wouldn't work. We haven't done a lot of crane jobs, and we have yet to have a situation where we couldn't work a climber in the tree, or adjacent tree. We do see that this is another valuable tool, and perhaps we should consider using them more.
If we do, I want to know as much as possible. As production manager, I have to know what we can and can't, should and shouldn't do.

We usually go up and start to set slings while the crane sets up, and just stay ahead. On spreading trees, where we find we have to set two or more slings to a piece to control swing, we have used two climbers. This has been very efficient for us. I don't see use tying into the crane unless there is no other option. I just want to be prepared for when that job comes along.

Thanks for your responses, but I'm still hoping to hear from Mark, or someone who worked the job that was on the video and can explain why he set up the way he did.

Louie Hampton

 

[Riggs]

Louie , I'll let Mark answer your question I got to get back to Brian .
I re-read your post and I have one small problem .

"Crane removals are about as easy as it gets for climbers."- I can only agree with that 50% of the time . I got a brochure in the mail the other day and it said in big colored letters "We own a 95 ft. crane and 65ft. bucket truck ! Makes the most dangerous trees EASY!"

- I think blind picks are about as nasty as it gets in tree work . I don't care how much communication you have , nothing beats eye contact . I just don't see it as being easy all the time . With the big Bandits , loaders and wood trucks , how much busting butt are the groundguys doing ?

 

[Mark Chisholm]

Louie,
Sorry for taking my time on this, but I've been working on storm clean-ups since I returned from Seattle. Lot's of trees on houses and downed powerlines and poles. I'll add some photos when developed.

As for my personal setup for the video. Well, first I'll say that I too am more comfortable staying in the tree when available. I do ride up on the crane at times and on some jobs, I've riden up, set a sling and tightened it, then rappeled to the work station (or ground) and pulled the line out.

The tie in technique used was an old OSHA man basket technique with one twist. I take an 8-12 ton clevis and secure it on the becket. Attach a short strap (shorty cable or sling) to the clevis that is just long enough to reach the end of the hook. I run my climbing line through the hook and through the shorty (or a clevis on the end if it is a cable sling). It works like a two-ringed false crotch.

The third safety was a VT knot attached above the becket directly to the load line. This was done for use in an OSHA meeting to try to show them how saftey oriented arborists can be. The VT is attached to the clevis or the shorty. The idea is if the hook opens or fails, the becket has you and if that fails the VT and load line has you. If anything else goes wrong, you are in trouble.

Any thoughts?

 

[treeclimber165]

Riggs,
How do you jump from using a 95' crane to 'blind picks'? I have done a lot of crane removals where a spotter was required on the roof or something for the lowest cuts, but part of doing a crane removal (or any tree job) is setting up the jobsite in a safe and efficient manner. Eye contact with the crane operator is very important, and not difficult to achieve with proper jobsite setup. I've had to use two-way Nextel phones on jobs using bigger cranes, but we could still see each other over the house. Had 140' of stick on a 65 ton crane in some of the pics here. (old pics, I'm using a helmet now) http://groups.msn.com/HomeRepairHelp/treeclimber165spics.msnw

I still think crane removals are about as easy as it gets for a climber. No worries on the landing zone, since you are notching for the sky and the boom will move to wherever you want it! Set a cable, make a cut, take a break. Repeat.

 

[Riggs]

Well now , that was an easy tree for a climber . I'll agree there . I went to blind picks from a 95ft. because , when something goes wrong ( now tell me nothing ever goes wrong ) radios and hand signals are a second too slow for me . I just know that when you get into them 100+ Poplars , Beeches , Ash and Oaks , I don't get paid well because I'm having an easy day .

 

[Todd_K.]

Seems like we are having quite a debate on the best maethod of doing crane removals. I feel there really is no right or wrong way as long as you are conforming with standards. I also feel crane removals can be very dangerous and should not be taken lightly,after all if anything goes wrong it is generally catastrofic. Our company has owned 2 different cranes in the past 11 years I was the crew leader/ climber for this crew for 6 years we did removals day in and day out 6 days a week. Some days 1 tree some days 5 trees either way thats alot of trees. With this much time to practice we have found the safest and most efficiant method is to get a ride on the hook using a adustable friction saver to the first cut or tie in point. We stay tied into the tree as much as possiable. If we feel the tree is not safe to be anchored to we rent another crane and tie into it. We tie into the hook with a friction saver and keep the hook as close to the end of the boom as possiable, so you do not feel the wieght of the ball.We also back up the ball to the becket. But agian this our way and it might not suit your situation, but I will say in those ten years that crew has had zero lost time injuries and minimal property damage. As far as crane removals being an easy job for a climber I disagree. All tree climbing is hard work, trimming all day is hard but not mentally fatiquing being efficiant at crane removals generally requires alot of climbing and alot of thinking and I feel making that many cuts a day is very phicially challenging, saws are heavy. The crew leader that,has been running the crane crew for the past 2 years has found the way I described to also be the safest and most efficiant. Do keep in mind the climbers that work on the crane crew have a considerable amount of experiance doing manual removals. Is this the best way, I do'nt know. Works for us, I'd love to hear of some differnt approaches.

 

[BigJon]

I have done quite a few removals with cranes. So many I have lost count. There is one method I used for a couple years that I had gotten used to but don't feel as though it was the safest way to go. We used to use just two half inch new england ropes at a length of about 12 or 14 feet. They were our straps. They always stayed attached to the hook. I would ride the hook into position, tie the two sometimes three straps off and move down into position. I would then pull my climbing line out off the crane and reconnect with the tree. I always made sure I had my climbing line clear and ready to go if I needed to bail. It always worked well and it was alot easier than dealing with the straps that aren't exactly ajustable. I found that I could really balance off load quite well. I was wondering about using a half inch T 900 for straps. It's rated at 17,000 lbs.

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: BigJon ]

 

[Todd_K.]

That set up sounds good. For straps we use 5/8'' and 9/16'' steel straps with a sliding bullet connector. The slings never needs to come of the crane. We have several different lengths. The only limitation is that there is no energy absortion if the crane is too tight or the climber makes a bad cut.

 

[MrPez]

Every crane crane job I've done has been extreme - if it wasn't it would be done as quick and much cheaper with rigging. There is normally two men on the ground to cope with the cutting, freeing up the chainman. The trees sometimes have poor anchor points for the climber to climb out safely and put on the cradle chains for big horizontal boughs - It is also difficult to have heavy chains pulling you back in off the end of a bough if the jib only has enough reach to position over the centre of balance!

If the cutter can place the chains easily enough, then of course, that makes sense.

I remember one job I was initiated to cranes on as a keen 18 year old: I had removed the top to allow access for the jib to reach a large lateral to my side. I was watching the foreman use the jib to place the chains to cradle this bough, when - whoa! The keeper had stuck open on the crane hook! Chris had his rope held doubled in his right hand at full stretch whilst crouching down (20ft out on the bough)to adjust the chain on the branch. His arm went slack as the loop of his rope slipped off the hook. He just looked at me, stood up and flipped it back on the hook with a rye smile!

I also remember riding the end of a 100ft Jib with the Chainman - my mate Baz. The driver thought it would be entertaining to flick the hydraulic control levers! If Baz clung on any tighter, I reckon He'd have to have been surgically removed - It was a pretty sickening sensation that far up with nothing around us. The supervisor saw it and hauled the driver half out the cab by the lapels!

I better stop there, theres plenty more stories like that - experience is a great educator if you survive it, but there are better ways to learn!

What about cutting - I always put in a cross cut about 20% of the diameter on the jib side (assuming a vertical section), then come in from the other side but lower than the frist cut. The cuts overlap parallel with a slight step proportionate to the diameter. This way,the jib can easily break the section away towards the crane without undue force. If the back cut is put in higher, the section can take the saw with it (and possibly the climber if its not disconnected from him!).

 

[BigJon]

I see what you saying about cutting below your front cut, good point. I myself have alway made my first cut on boom side usually about 80% or until I feel start to pinch a bit. Then I like to come in from behind above my front cut but down on an angle of about 45 degrees. I started doing only because it helps sometimes keeping the but from kicking back at me. I once cut a nice straight piece of hickory about 14 feet long maybe 22" in diameter, it was cut free and just sitting there. I look down at my saddle to put my saw away and the crane operator decided to pick it. I guess his boom was extended a bit toward me and the but came back and caught me the fore head. I was fine only 7 stitches and lost a couple hours of work that day. The head ache stayed with me for about a week.

Since then I always wait to put my saw away if I can. There is no one cut that is right. It all depends on your comfort level and the tree itself.