Certified vs. Not

AW4130 · Dec 5, 2014

I have a question. Well, multiple questions. What specifically is considered a "hack"? Does a good arborist NEED to be a CA? Or is this just an opinion? Are there good arbos out there that are not CA's? Are there bad arbos out there that are? Does being, working, conducting, studying all material related to, considering and calling yourself an arborist require cert? Just trying to hear some thoughts from others on these ponderings in my head haha.

Treetopflyer · Dec 5, 2014

Somone who doesn't care about trees or what they do to them is my def of a hack. Makes poor cuts ,gives false information. To sell more hacking.For this biz that's a hack to me. My Grandfather has been studying trees for sixty years, can answer most anything about them. He's not certified arb, but I am and the depth of his knowledge is much deeper than I can try to keep up with overall. So for me certified doesnt mean a whole lot, but to general public they look for creditials to set someone apart from another and it can't hurt to have.
It was easier for guys like him with less competition in the field than today seems like the past five years around me I've seen more hacks pop up than I care to think about. Being certified isn't a necessary thing around my parts. I'm sure there's plenty of good arbs that aren't and a few shitty ones that are even if they didn't start that way ,but fold to the almighty dollar. There's 2 cents you can step right over right there if you'd like.

guymayor · Dec 5, 2014

I've worked with several good arbs that could not break the verbal barriers in the test.

I've worked with certified folks who just don't understand the tree, or how to manage it.

But if someone really is "studying all material related to this work", certification would be easy, and a good investment.

BCMA is an excellent investment.

treehumper · Dec 5, 2014

Like any profession you have good and bad in either category, accredited or not. When I worked in framing the guy I was with was an incredible carpenter that was called on by custom home builders when they wanted the job done right. No papers.

It's good for marketing and for demonstrating a commitment to learning. Worth getting.

wyoclimber · Dec 5, 2014

There are definitely bad CA's out there just as there are good Arborist's who aren't certified. Personally, I believe you need to decide for your own reasons. It is good marketing and I think that as a larger percentage of tree workers become certified, we will see our industry improve. There are definitely problems with the cert. Personally I didn't think that the test was that hard and it's far too easy to fudge the time requirements. I waited 6 years before finally becoming a CA and did it because I decided that it was a commitment to continually grow as an Arborist. Being a CA is only worth what the individual puts into it. I also decided that however flawed, the ISA is what we have and it will only improve if it's members are willing to.

KevinS · Dec 6, 2014

Treetopflyer said:
Somone who doesn't care about trees or what they do to them is my def of a hack. Makes poor cuts ,gives false information. To sell more hacking.For this biz that's a hack to me. My Grandfather has been studying trees for sixty years, can answer most anything about them. He's not certified arb, but I am and the depth of his knowledge is much deeper than I can try to keep up with overall. So for me certified doesnt mean a whole lot, but to general public they look for creditials to set someone apart from another and it can't hurt to have.
It was easier for guys like him with less competition in the field than today seems like the past five years around me I've seen more hacks pop up than I care to think about. Being certified isn't a necessary thing around my parts. I'm sure there's plenty of good arbs that aren't and a few shitty ones that are even if they didn't start that way ,but fold to the almighty dollar. There's 2 cents you can step right over right there if you'd like.

I agree with this not holding to any standards, doing more harm than good underbidding cause of no insurance, etc.

I'm sure some of the older, more looked up to guys certified or not can tell you that they have chopped branches into a no dump truck with no chipper. It's not the equipment and fancy and titles its the standards that you work to

Treetopflyer · Dec 6, 2014

KevinS said:
I agree with this not holding to any standards, doing more harm than good underbidding cause of no insurance, etc.

I'm sure some of the older, more looked up to guys certified or not can tell you that they have chopped branches into a no dump truck with no chipper. It's not the equipment and fancy and titles its the standards that you work to

Especially if chippers weren't around when they started.!lol. High quality has to come from within for sure . Its a drive to do right cause your associated with your performance and want to feel good about what you do. I once did a job for a guy a contract climbing , he tells me not to worry about one dead branch way out the back side of a tree that was almost invisible from the ground or from where the client would see from their patio. I took the time to go out and cut it anyways cause I look at it like my names on the tree and its the right thing to do. I didn't care that the dude didn't want me to spend a mediocre extra amount of time to do it right. I do it right because I choose to not let anything stop me from doing the right thing. I wasn't a C.A. @ the time , but that doesn't mean I wasn't doing what's right for the tree. Even if it was frowned upon by the guy paying. If you do some things half assed , you probably do everything half assed. Some people are just better about covering up there half ass done tracks , instead of putting the energy into doing things right. Titles and fancy things are great ,but the trees don't care about that shit. I try not to either . Quality workmanship is what really floats my boat. When you step back and can be proud of what you've done. That's what its all about for me . I even kinda despise when I get called by a customer to get the trees down and leave everything. I just don't like leaving a mess and walking away. I know some guys love them drop n gos . I just want to leave it looking better than when I got there ,not like a bomb went off. To each his own I suppose!

Reed2179 · Dec 8, 2014

The value of a cert IMO is what it brings you. Some like the recognition of their skill. Others the separation from their peers. I personally see it as a marketing strategy, it brings me biz. Recently two of my competitors got certified. Both started their biz about 10 years ago in my area and judging by their pruning cuts and practices on job sites- I can’t verify but, I’d bet neither had the time requirements (as Wyo points out about time requirements). Maybe the ISA is good with folks buying equipment and teaching themselves? I think we, as professionals, should not be OK with this option. I think it was a necessary step in the early times to allow the ISA to establish itself. Now it dilutes the credential and misleads consumers.
Guess now I’m getting forced into getting my BCMA to stay above the fray… Wait did someone at the ISA already know that would happen? Smart way to get all of us to do (buy) another 30 CEU’s, pay more for our testing, ect. And the best part is (for the ISA), this strategy pays on both ends.

Treetopflyer · Dec 8, 2014

Im noticing how most stay along same lines of thought , yet say it in their own ways in this subject . I'll add its a good way to meet like minded people and we're most all searching for that in life.

frashdog · Dec 8, 2014

AW4130 said:
I have a question. Well, multiple questions. What specifically is considered a "hack"? Does a good arborist NEED to be a CA? Or is this just an opinion? Are there good arbos out there that are not CA's? Are there bad arbos out there that are? Does being, working, conducting, studying all material related to, considering and calling yourself an arborist require cert? Just trying to hear some thoughts from others on these ponderings in my head haha.

It's per your market.

If there are a few "bigger" tree services in your area and/or they have/advertise "certified" sorry "Certified Arborists" then go for it, it can not hurt.

I got my isa cert years ago and it got me one job I remember...no one around here I spoke with about it had a clue, or cared... I dropped it due to the return on the investment time/cost wise. I have a bachelors in environmental science and thought the isa exam was a joke, for several reasons...

That said I will probably get Certified again for sake of promoting the profession and learning within our industry.

wyoclimber · Dec 9, 2014

In my experience being a CA doesn't "get" me work. It helps, it gets my foot in the door sometimes, but I get my own work. I sell what I believe to be the best type of job for the tree. I explain why that is my opinion and I charge what I think the job is worth. Being a CA might be a tiebreaker on occasion but I don't think I've ever picked up a job purely by being a CA.

evo · Dec 9, 2014

The test was a joke... It goes both ways too. I've lost jobs because I wasn't certified (when I wasn't), and I've lost jobs because I'm certified... Around here people 'in the know' ask if you are an "Arborist," and they don't know what they are asking, or the difference between a Cert arborist, BMCA, or just some one who calls themselves one (rightly or not). All they know is that they are suppose to ask, but lost the details of why and what they are asking for..
I had an evaluation, where the client called me out for diagnosis, and after I figured it out and recommended some work they asked who can they get to do it. They assumed that since they called a certified Arborist, we are above doing pruning, soil work, and removals...

mdvaden · Dec 9, 2014

AW4130 said:
I have a question. Well, multiple questions. What specifically is considered a "hack"? Does a good arborist NEED to be a CA? Or is this just an opinion? Are there good arbos out there that are not CA's? Are there bad arbos out there that are? Does being, working, conducting, studying all material related to, considering and calling yourself an arborist require cert? Just trying to hear some thoughts from others on these ponderings in my head haha.

I could have passed the test 10 years before I took it. If I dropped my certification tomorrow, I'd be just as adept.

The Certification is a minimum benchmark.

The certification seems to be a useful tool, but the rest of the tools in the toolbox are important too.

guymayor · Dec 9, 2014

evo, how have you lost jobs?

"I had an evaluation, where the client called me out for diagnosis, and after I figured it out and recommended some work they asked who can they get to do it. They assumed that since they called a certified Arborist, we are above doing pruning, soil work, and removals..."

So you got paid for evaluating? Maybe certification helped get that work? And isn't it a good thing that evaluating is a separate service? Consultants who aren't also contractors are not above anything, and may suffer from a knowledge gap. It's not easy for non-practitioners to stay in touch with tree care practices.

wyoclimber · Dec 9, 2014

mdvaden said:
The Certification is a minimum benchmark.

I agree completely. Instead of looking at becoming a CA as the end goal, it should be considered a jumping off point. When you have enough knowledge to be a CA, you should know just how little you actually know. I think it was touched on in another thread. 3 years in the industry should have you somewhere inbetween conscious incompetence and conscious competence.

evo · Dec 9, 2014

guymayor said:
So you got paid for evaluating? Maybe certification helped get that work? And isn't it a good thing that evaluating is a separate service? Consultants who aren't also contractors are not above anything, and may suffer from a knowledge gap. It's not easy for non-practitioners to stay in touch with tree care practices.

That one was probably a bad example. Yes I got the job of evaluating, and yes I did wind up doing the remediation work after speaking with them. For some reason I've come across comment's like that enough times it makes me wonder how frequent that idea is here. It even came up once with a removal too. Then there is the people automatically assume that a Certified Arborist is out of the price range. We only have two other Certified Arborists (other than myself), and one of which has astronomical prices, an I belive that has left a certain perception with the public. Of course I've lost out on all the topping jobs

John_KAYS · Dec 10, 2014

It's amazing how much stuff you have to know to take the certification exam, but how basic the stuff actually is when you get down to it. Just imagine if an arborist didn't know any of the information on the exam!

At least the certification gives you a benchmark, otherwise you go off reputation alone.

I believe reputation is more important than the certification, but if you don't have a reputation

the certification is going to do a lot.

If you take two arborists, one certified :numberone:

and one that is not :tanguero:

, the one that is certified is not necessarily a better arborist :endesacuerdo:

...that individual's knowledge has been measured by a standardized test :pcmala:

, while the other has been measured by their reputation alone :rock:

. The reputation is what measures whether the arborist is trustworthy

, reliable :sisi:

, knowledgable

, skilled

, etc, or not

!

The only addition I will make is that the reputation is often built off a client base that has no clue how to take care of trees, so who can say that reputation accurately measures whether that sweet talking arborist knows anything about pruning etc. The certification measures your knowledge of actual arboriculture. So, I guess you can say the certification gives you a more accurate picture of the arborists base for that knowledge...but might not demonstrate the way in which they use or retain that knowledge.

For the longest time I didn't think the certification was necessary!

This is all coming from someone who will be passing the exam on Saturday! :bailando:

...don't worry I have a great reputation too!

oldoakman · Dec 10, 2014

Good luck John. I only wish you could have taken the Penn Del original cert test.

AW4130 · Dec 10, 2014

John_KAYS said:
It's amazing how much stuff you have to know to take the certification exam, but how basic the stuff actually is when you get down to it. Just imagine if an arborist didn't know any of the information on the exam!

At least the certification gives you a benchmark, otherwise you go off reputation alone.

I believe reputation is more important than the certification, but if you don't have a reputation the certification is going to do a lot.

If you take two arborists, one certified and one that is not, the one that is certified is not necessarily a better arborist...that individual's knowledge has been measured by a standardized test, while the other has been measured by their reputation alone. The reputation is what measures whether the arborist is trustworthy, reliable, knowledgable, skilled, etc, or not!

The only addition I will make is that the reputation is often built off a client base that has no clue how to take care of trees, so who can say that reputation accurately measures whether that sweet talking arborist knows anything about pruning etc. The certification measures your knowledge of actual arboriculture. So, I guess you can say the certification gives you a more accurate picture of the arborists base for that knowledge...but might not demonstrate the way in which they use or retain that knowledge.

For the longest time I didn't think the certification was necessary!

This is all coming from someone who will be passing the exam on Saturday!
...don't worry I have a great reputation too!

I must say... That was Probly the best response I feel so far. No offense to any others. They have all been good! But wow, well said John!