Bravado

B

Bart_

Carpal tunnel level member
Location
GTA
Today I ran into a big company crew cleaning up storm stuff. I know a job where there's a silver maple, post storm breakage about 70' tall and it has an about 50' leader at 45 degrees with a 20' chunk of from-somewhere-else balanced/laying out at the tip of the branch where it sags to horizontal.

I figured if you could get out there climbing, your rope would end up at 20 degrees from horizontal. On a featureless leader, no lanyarding your way up. Then there's the issue of a rigging tip, either what's left of the top like a fork of stubs, where the climbing tip is, or out another splaying gangly leader. Or -ve rig at the cut, but I wouldn't feel good about shocking the gangly branch I'm on. The other rig tips would shoot the pieces real close past you. And don't rig from your climbing tip leader rule.

So liking to keep my person intact I reasoned out that cut n chuck little bits from a lift was the best option. So I ask the crew if they run lifts, 50 or 60'. "No we'd just climb it" "The main tip is compromised and the rope angle would be - show them- " Looking like a cowboy at the OK Corral the fellow says "I'd spur it" . I didn't pursue talking about spurless until on the branch to be removed because I was getting that "There's no intelligent life down here Scotty" vibe.


Am I not savvy enough, coming up with my assessment or is this a case of macho climber bravado? I know, pics? but I don't have any. My little voice and all my rational reasoned planning all came up negative except for bits from the lift. I pulled a similar dying branch from the same tree using self rig at the cut and it was a little hairy, one big end and 4 logs. This one is much bigger and has the passenger branch on top. And a shed and pool and landscaping underneath. Not to mention the unions could be hiddenly cracked/compromised from the massive wind storm that wrecked the tree.

Is there personality types etc in climbers like alpha males etc, young dumb foolish and indestructible, cautious, over cautious, fuck it cuts and on it goes...

Thoughts?
 
Pictures would help a lot but from what you have wrote out I could only think of the possibility of choking a srt line on the limb to be removed and a second line to the main stem. You could try to balance your weight somehow enough to get onto the limb in a safe spot to take small chunks and just slowly work your way down and choke off the srt line as you work down like spar work.

Or you do have the option of climbing the limb with spurs and if the rope angle makes you nervous you can ad a wrap on your lanyard or a second climb line choked off or with a cinching friction saver, because you can climb a tree while wearing your spurs without actually using them, you just have to be careful about how you do it.

I have worked with climbers that were held up on a pedestal by the bosses because they were willing to do the most dangerous and reckless of trees without a care at all and you can see it in the work they do that they really don’t have regard for safety. I am not the best climber but I can get the job done and it’ll be the safest that I can given the situation but it may just take more time or extra steps to make it happen. Sometimes the “fearless” guys make it look easy but that doesn’t mean it’s the way to do it.


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My brain is having difficulty working out the body positioning for spurring up a 45 degree leader with a basically horizontal climb line at the end location. Sloth posture? Heavy side hang? Even if you make the climb all the hazard factors are still at play.

edit - what about at the end, where the branch is horizontal too?
 
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Nkymatt said:
I have worked with climbers that were held up on a pedestal by the bosses because they were willing to do the most dangerous and reckless of trees without a care at all and you can see it in the work they do that they really don’t have regard for safety. I am not the best climber but I can get the job done and it’ll be the safest that I can given the situation but it may just take more time or extra steps to make it happen. Sometimes the “fearless” guys make it look easy but that doesn’t mean it’s the way to do it.


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Click to expand...

Building off of this...

Everyone has their capabilities and limits of where they draw the line in the sand. You have nothing to prove.

I much rather a climber be honest and say they aren't comfortable doing something then think they have something to prove and try and do it and an accident happens.

Some people regardless of how much experience they have under their belt may tend to be more cautious and take extra safety steps that may not actually be necessary from a safety standpoint but on a personal level it makes them feel better and more safe. I'm fine with this, and if it takes some extra time so what.

There is a psychological aspect to tree work and tree climbing. Everyone responds to risk and danger differently. If you are more on the cautious side, you do what you have to do to feel safe. So what if another climber can safely perform the same task in less time. If you're in the tree, what matters is you doing what you need to do so you can safely perform the task. It doesn't need to be a competition of who can do what the fastest, etc. Or maybe you’re not comfortable with a climb but someone else is. That’s perfectly okay. Nothing wrong with turning something down.

And of course there is another side to this, which is people who are just reckless, cut corners, in a rush, take unnecessary risks, etc.


I just looked at a tree yesterday in fact, a small pine tree that was right next to and slighly over a fence and a shed. One leader which was on the thinner side went at an angle right over the fence. The other leader was shorter than that one. I didn't quite feel comfortable climbing to the tip of that smaller leaning leader to piece it out over the fence when to have a backup TIP in the other leader would mean it is much lower than my working height (not even horizontal) at a downwards angle. So if I had to bail or something, I would be essentially falling a considerable ways before the line would catch me, and then I might go for a swing or crash into the tree. I ultimately decided a lift would be the safest option. Now, could I theoretically climb it and maybe be safe? Possibly. Would others maybe climb it? Possibly. But I felt more comfortable and safe going the lift route versus taking any chances. I mean, if you have the equipment or can rent the equipment (just factor the rental into the bid) and it increases overall safety plus efficiency why not?

Ultimately when you are the one in the tree you have to do what you feel comfortable with. If you go too far out of your comfort zone that can be hazardous as well and affect your judgement / decision making process.
 
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Bart_ said:
My brain is having difficulty working out the body positioning for spurring up a 45 degree leader with a basically horizontal climb line at the end location. Sloth posture? Heavy side hang? Even if you make the climb all the hazard factors are still at play.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily when climbing but when static and making your cuts, there’s different ways you could tie into the spar itself to get a more secure position on those awkward leaners besides just your lanyard. No doubt you already know this lol.

Something that comes to mind for me personally is a triple tie in point. There was a thread the other day about it. One of my thoughts for where it could be useful is precisely those awkward climbs on a spar like what you’re describing.

Maybe check it out.
 
I can’t work out the scenario you describe tree wise, but if the guy is happy to do it, and he has experience, good for him.

Are you sure there’s not a tiny bit of annoyance on your part that they’re happy climbing it and you aren’t?

Theres nothing wrong with rigging from the leader you’re on, keep it sensible and there’s no issue.

Very few trees have perfect rigging/tieing in points.
You take what you’re given.
 
I was going to dismantle a maple trunk. I put together, from talking to one of the neighbors, that a large trunk higher up had recently broken, tips taking out the neighbor's A/C unit.

I was going to remotely install a rigging line above the trunk I was going to a rig down in pieces.

The rigging trunk was cracked by the impact from a couple months before. Spotted it just in time.
 
Last year we looked at an actively falling grey pine, I'd removed the one next to it the year before that had died and recommended they do the other one as well asap. We went out to clean up some fallen oaks and noticed the angle of the big digger had shifted when we were walking around and sure enough with some slight inspection the root plate was pulling up, no way I'm would climb it we had room to fall it safely except for a few bushes. The neighbor started being a huge pain so we told them if they found someone else reasonably priced to have them do it, they found someone and they climbed it I would never feel comfortable climbing a tree in that condition grey pines are known for just falling over on a whim anyway. I'm pretty cautious as far as what I'll get into if I feel it's got any kind of reasonable chance of falling over I decline the job or find another way to do it, I don't need the money, don't have anything to prove and my family would be petty bummed if I died.
 
I watched a tree guy years ago cleaning up storm damaged trees on the neighbors property back at my parents old house. The one tree he started climbing, got about 20’ up, shoved his hand saw nearly completely through the trunk, got bug eyed and came right back down. Told the neighbor he wasn’t comfortable with trying to safely remove that particular tree but could recommend someone who would. I give him props for that. Coming from a construction background, sometimes it’s not a matter of skill or willingness to do something risky, it can also come down to what gear you have. I’ve turned away work because I could probably rig something to work, but I’m not really set up to do it efficiently and safely and I’d rather not mess with it but give it to someone who is properly equipped to deal with it.

Some good examples are roofing and plumbing. I know how to do both, but I don’t have the gear to safely do anything more than a patio roof or shed roof or a minor bit of plumbing. Have I done some bigger things at different points? Well, yes, but I’d rather refer the customer to a roofer or plumber. I’m geared more for remodeling, decks, sheds, patios, retaining walls, etc.

As to tree work, I did some rock climbing back around high school so climbing and heights aren’t really an issue for me. I’m not at all happy with any of the tree companies I’ve ever had contact with around the area. There’s trees on the 8 acres that are owned by my parents and myself (my land is adjoining) that need to come down for various reasons (dead, in the way, hazards) and ones that need dead stuff removed before something else gets smashed or someone gets hurt. So I’m not trying to get into being an arborist, but I want to take care of what’s here. Arguably I probably could have picked up a used man lift for not much more than I have in my climbing gear, but oh well.

I’m perfectly comfortable hanging from a rope in a tree. I’m slow and cautious for the most part, but it doesn’t bother me at all to be up there. I feel way safer hanging from the rope with a lanyard in place cutting branches than trying to cut anything from a ladder. I had a bad experience years ago with that, forget exactly what happened, but I very much remember the branch didn’t go where it was supposed to and instead took out the ladder I was on, leaving my feet tangled in the ladder and me clinging to the tree for dear life. Nope, give me a rope and saddle anyday. Ladders and branch trimming don’t mix well. Actually, I don’t like ladders much period. It’s not the heights, it’s the stability and the fact that with a ladder, I’m not typically tied in above it. If it kicks out or more likely something kicks it out, I’m going. A rope and saddle, there’s nothing below me to worry about getting knocked out. Maybe I’m weird?
 
The term bravado came to mind because, in spite of my description, sight unseen the guy just said it was no problem at all. Hence the no intelligent life reference.

How about horizontal rope, horizontal branch, what exactly is the climbing technique for this?
 
Bart_ said:
The term bravado came to mind because, in spite of my description, sight unseen the guy just said it was no problem at all. Hence the no intelligent life reference.

How about horizontal rope, horizontal branch, what exactly is the climbing technique for this?
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1. Get comfortable with your rope being horizontal and not always having a vertical line directly above you.

2. Carry a second climb line / mini climb line for better work position when you’re cutting. Use it to set a secondary TIP if you’re main TIP doesn’t do the job. Or use a redirect.

3. Try different configurations of securing into the spar.

It’s all situation dependent and what you’re comfortable with. Hard to really describe different scenarios just in text without actually being there or seeing it.

There’s a ton of different ways to get the job done safely, it boils down to what are you comfortable with.
 
Vicente said:
Get a grcs or a hobbs and you could tie towards the end and lift that whole thing up, those things are huge time savers on jobs like that.
Click to expand...
Yes, my nephew raves about the GRCS that his firm uses.
Not sure it would save much time in this case tbh.

You have to get out there anyway, and 3/4 lowers took 10/15 minutes max.

Its next on the list though .
 
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