Art Positioner & wire core

Jimmycrackcorn · May 24, 2018

Good evening T-buzz..

I've had been eyeballing the Art positioner for some time & decided to buy it... at the same time i wanted to try a wire core so i bought one of those as well.. putting those two together obviously meant i had to get the right "S" Cam for the mechanical end of things..

Well i just received all three, slapped it all together & I'm rather disappointed at the moment.. The thing seems to work pretty good on rope, but it is rather concerning on this 1/2" flipline i have.. it's as if there isn't enough spring pressure to grab the wire core. I can freely slip & slide the wirecore through the device both directions like butter.. the only time it wants to grab is if there is a fast loading of the device.. if i unweight the AP2 things just flow right through it.. the same situation exists with when using rope but not half as bad. It's almost acting like a backup grab with the wire core.. where it will follow you around & grab hard under fast load

I understand the design is different then your traditional grab where the lever you manipulate is the same thing thats clamping the rope, whereas the AP2 you grab the handle & rotate the entire device in thus releasing the pressure on the cam.. or something like that.. Either way, I'm wondering if this is mearly because it's brand new or if it really isn't any good for wire core...

I'm reluctant to see how it will be any better with both the wire core & AP2 broken in, because if i grab the tail end of the flipline and pull the slack tight to my hip & through a caritool (naturally where i would keep the slack), by doing so it allows the AP2 to let go & run. It's almost as if the AP2 has to have the rope come out of it & do an immediate 90* turn downward in order for it to grab on this wire core. Otherwise if ran straight out of the back the stiffness of the wire core being straight pushes the device somehow into releasing..

I'm going to try & post a video of this as I'm not sure anyone is going to follow what i just said unless theyve seen it first hand..
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5b063eb88ec9a/VID_20180524_002032.mp4

rope-a-dope · May 25, 2018

Huh, thats strange. My coworker uses the positioner2 on a yale maxiflip sport and swears its the ultimate combo, so enlighten us with your wire core model. I love the positioner, but im a rope lanyard guy.
It is different for sure, and requires some practice and maybe a different configuration than you have been using with a typical grab.
It is sensitive enough that just rubbing against my rope bridge can make it slip, so definately try to give it space.

Brocky · May 25, 2018

Hi Jimmy, welcome to the Buzz! I've read of others having the same problems with the Positioner. The rope might fuzz up some with use to help, but the same use probably will also wear down the cam. I sometimes rec climb using the Wild Country Lifeguard, which sounds like it works similarly. I found that a throwball on a steel carabiner tied at the bottom of the rope, was enough to make it engage every time. Without the weight, I had to pull on the tail each time to set the cam against the rope.

96coal449 · May 25, 2018

Welcome to the BUZZ.
I use the ART on a wire core flip line. I love it .... smooth as butter. When I have slack in the system, it will not grab tight. Once it's loaded, it will not slip. When I'm not lanyard to the tree and the flip line is hanging off my side, the weight of the tail end will freely pull the slack through the system. Depending on how much tail weight there is. That is the only con I find with it. I have a second positioner on my 5'ish rope bridge as a bridge length adjuster. It stays put until I adjust my bridge. I also use it with a quickie for the connection point, to make my bridge detachable. I ride an MCRS and the detachable bridge makes adorning the saddle on and off much simpler. Hope this helps or at least gives some insight for you.

Jimmycrackcorn · May 25, 2018

rope-a-dope said:
Huh, thats strange. My coworker uses the positioner2 on a yale maxiflip sport and swears its the ultimate combo, so enlighten us with your wire core model. I love the positioner, but im a rope lanyard guy.
It is different for sure, and requires some practice and maybe a different configuration than you have been using with a typical grab.
It is sensitive enough that just rubbing against my rope bridge can make it slip, so definately try to give it space.

I'm using it on a brand new 1/2"/13mm Rope Logic wire core , (which is the main reason i bought it, wanted something significantly stiffer & thicker than my tri-tech) but my measurements suggest it's not even close.. see attached..
Tight measurement.

Second is just touching.

When i first saw the rope logic i swore my TriTech was fatter, in fact it is..

Regardless, that's just an observation... maybe a rant about things not being as advertised when buying based upon that, however it has nothing to do with why I'm having the issue i am with it slipping on the wire core..

Also, can you view the video? I didn't know y'all were going to have to download it, i thought it would have been hosted.. I'll have to look into how to post it differently..

I'm wonder if the Yale Uniline, Uniline Lifeline or Unitrex might be a good compromise as some of those two come in a larger size then the buck rigidline (really just Uniline) but within the specs of the AP2..

Oh wow.. just realized your replies.. as i hit send.. lemma holler in a bit & I'll respond to yall..

Jimmycrackcorn · May 25, 2018

Brocky said:
-I've read of others having the same problems with the Positioner. The rope might fuzz up some with use to help, but the same use probably will also wear down the cam.

-Wild Country Lifeguard

-Without the weight, I had to pull on the tail each time to set the cam against the rope.

Interesting.. i was hoping i wasn't there only one.. i was thinking the same with fuzz, but to be quite honest, i don't think i could even get it to that point though as I'm not sure I'm going to be able to climb on it & trust it not to let go every time i sit back into it... Having to set it every single time i unweight it is rather un-nerving & is not how it's supposed to work.. At least i don't think it is..

96coal449 said:
-I use the ART on a wire core flip line. I love it .... smooth as butter. When I have slack in the system, it will not grab tight. Once it's loaded, it will not slip.

-When I'm not lanyard to the tree and the flip line is hanging off my side, the weight of the tail end will freely pull the slack through the system.

-I have a second positioner on my 5'ish rope bridge as a bridge length adjuster. It stays put until I adjust my bridge. I also use it with a quickie for the connection point, to make my bridge detachable.

Ahhhhh.. so your using it on a wire core.. Your saying it locks under load but will run unloaded... I wish i could say the same. Problem is mine just runs unless it's basically shock loaded..

Question.. - So what happens if you run it tight to your hip.. like as if it were rope & you had another 20ft Daisy chained off a saddles' rear accessory point.. like in my video.. just download it, let me know.... i swear it's not a porn virus..lol

You know the throw ball trick would be great & all but i don't want the lanyard hanging down below me, i want to be able to clip the tail close to my side & coil/stow the rest to the rear of my hip or behind me.. i have an ocd thing with having things hanging below me when limbing or dropping things.. I'm always nervous it will get tangled & yank me down...

To be quite honest, i too thought about using it as a adjustable bridge in a pinch, but after seeing how it functions I'm not sure how anyone could trust it like that.. are you using a paw as well somehow or just the AP2 secured to your rise & leg loop connection?

You see, my original impression on paper of this device was that the spring of the cam was somehow tied into little finger lever & pulling on that lever released the cam.. I was never aware that the device was position sensitive & that the actual rotation of it was what made it release.. i guess it wouldn't be any different then grabbing a rope grab by the bottom & manipulating it, but grabs rarley get manipulated like that.. loaded or unloaded they are grabbing.

What sux is i know I'll be ok using the AP2 with rope.. I'll just get used to it.. but i realistically bought all this to get the benefit of a wire core.. so.. how do i test this wire core in real world conditions without it being considered used if I want to return it. Y'all know off hand what size sheath i would need to thread the eye end of the lanyard through it? Ill run down to a hose shop & grab a sheath real quick.. I ask as im not familiar with sheathing sizing.. That way i can actually try this thing around a tree with a sleeve & don't have to be that a-hole returning something that's filthy & clearly been used..

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96coal449 · May 25, 2018

A friend told me years back, "You can do anything with a rope."

You can pull with it, lower stuff, secure things, haul Items, transverse with it, and more.

Another fellow, in response to me repeating that phrase, said "..... anything but push with it."

You can push with a wire core, so to speak. This makes it run freely unloaded. I keep the tail end secured to my saddle with a small biner using the finished eye of the flip line. I don't have paws for my rope bridge. The MCRS uses rings. Even with paws my method would still work. I use the quickie next to the ring with the ART attached. The quickie is before the ring, in line with my bridge. I left the ring there "floating" to keep my leg strap attachments organized when adorning the saddle. I have a thread on it here somewhere with pics.

Jimmycrackcorn · May 25, 2018

96coal449 said:
A friend told me years back, "You can do anything with a rope."

You can pull with it, lower stuff, secure things, haul Items, transverse with it, and more.

Another fellow, in response to me repeating that phrase, said "..... anything but push with it."

You can push with a wire core, so to speak. This makes it run freely unloaded. I keep the tail end secured to my saddle with a small biner using the finished eye of the flip line. I don't have paws for my rope bridge. The MCRS uses rings. Even with paws my method would still work. I use the quickie next to the ring with the ART attached. The quickie is before the ring, in line with my bridge. I left the ring there "floating" to keep my leg strap attachments organized when adorning the saddle. I have a thread on it here somewhere with pics.

I'll have to look for it.. I'm horrible at picturing explainations i haven't seen before..

Last night i ended up wrapping a plastic bag around a pole to simulate & keep it clean.. something i could really lean into instead of the finished oak ballister & railing i almost ripped of the end of my staircase..lol..

So this second time around, It was allot less sensitive in regards to letting go.. However i was still able to have it completely run when i pull the tail straight back & into a biner..

One thing i did do was, i took it apart & bent/forced the spring 180 degrees in the opposite direction (in other words, coiled it in the correct direction to apply more pressure). I have two as i bought the cam kit, so if this one got busted i can just use the replacement..

In doing so, i noticed the spring that came with the wire core wasn't any stronger.. your figure it would need to be as it's having to work against the spring of the hidden wire core.

I also realized i can coil my tail so that it exits the AP2 straight down without having to have the rest of it hang down there as well.. it was just a matter of wrapping the opposite way.. duhh.. yeah.. i had a moment there..

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96coal449 · May 25, 2018

Sometimes all your climbing system needs is some fine tuning. I almost didn't like the ART at first. At least on wire core. I didn't care for the lanyard traveling through the adjuster when not in use. I got used to it quick and decided because it IS so smooth when in use that I'd never look back. Being able to adjust with one hand, unloaded or loaded, sold me. So much that when I modified my bridge I picked it again. It's also compact, taking very little reality on the bridge. Much less than a rope grab.

I think I titled that thread MCRS adjustable/detachable bridge. I'm not sure where I posted it. I will look also.

96coal449 · May 25, 2018

It's under climber's talk titled adjustable/detachable MCRS bridge.
I'd leave you a link but I'm computer illiterate stupid.
I did a search of MCRS bridge and it popped right up.

Jimmycrackcorn · May 26, 2018

96coal449 said:
Sometimes all your climbing system needs is some fine tuning. I almost didn't like the ART at first. At least on wire core. I didn't care for the lanyard traveling through the adjuster when not in use. I got used to it quick and decided because it IS so smooth when in use that I'd never look back. Being able to adjust with one hand, unloaded or loaded, sold me. So much that when I modified my bridge I picked it again. It's also compact, taking very little reality on the bridge. Much less than a rope grab.

I think I titled that thread MCRS adjustable/detachable bridge. I'm not sure where I posted it. I will look also.

Yes! It's is very small.. i frigging love that factor along with the dual smoothness.. i was worried about how big it was going to be, with the longer swivel version & whatnot. I don't think it's any bigger than a typical Rock Exotica grab..

So i just used it & it only fell down/released a couple times...i had a high TIP set so my weighting on it was constantly changing.. I went up to do a simple hanger & ended in the tree for a few hours.. This was actually my first rather technical climb, & i was trying 3 different new peices of gear so i was rather slow (ok, so it wasn't all that technical. In the end, even though i DO NOT like how it will release on me, i think imma be alright with it.. my only major concern is trying to do 2in1 with it & the wire core.. doing so puts a funny/kinda uncontrollable, bends in the wire & the AP2 has an easy opportinity to get pushed around & released.. 2in1 as in (additional prussik & 2 extra biners). I didn't really get to try it like that as i brought my Tri-Tech as s backup incase i chickened out on the AP2.

I will tell you what though.. i think i want to try PMI Max Wear in it & see how it does. I've heard it's the stiffest rope you can find, Stiffer than KM III KM Max, HTP etc.. Also, i think I'm going to get cheapo rigging depot grab.. gonna try to find that Ergo style .. were talking $25-$30.. . Sounds too good to be true compared to a Micro-Grab or a Rock Ex.. I can't remember the last time i climbed on one & it seems like a cheap backup/alternative for either my wire core or TriTech.

Also one more question for y'all & i swear I'm done for today..lol..
So rope walking with Haas Velox & Foot scender using drt/mrt or whatever the nomenclature for double rope is these days.. Am i the only one to use the line above me as leverage/balance? Problem I'm having is i keep wedging my huge bear paws inbetween the cender's attachment biner & the taught rope. I know.. sounds silly but If i consciously avoid it, i end up with very little upward progress. M 6'2" with a 34 inseam so i should be able to make really good upward progress with each step.. Im basically losing the length of the 4" Biner & top attatchment block of the Uni.. Now, to combat this i have my adjustable bridge cinched as tight as i can get it in order to shorten everything up.. I've also tried it adjusted all the way out like one would body thrust but obviously that position isn't ideal for rope walking.. If anyone else having this issue where their bridge to mechanical ascender is just too long, how are you combatting? My bridge consist of a Rook & typical O or D Biner.. maybe the Rook is longer than a typical swivel & biner?

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96coal449 · May 26, 2018

Swivel on my lanyard and standard positioner on the bridge.

Jimmycrackcorn · May 28, 2018

96coal449 said:
Swivel on my lanyard and standard positioner on the bridge.

Say.. is this ok like this? I've never used webbing for a harness connection.. i know with some sewn web saw lanyards their are specific instructions not to pull the seams a certain way, etc.. I picked this up but not for the commonly used swivel advantage they give, but to shorten up the connection point & keep the AP2 handle away from my bridge. It's really short & i really had to work it on there. Just want to make sure it's legit like that with the very end of the stitching being partially under the girth hitch on both sides..

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Brocky · May 28, 2018

The sling is safe to use the way you have it. It's even one with a stronger break strength, than the usual 22 kN. I've found that I don't like to connect directly to the harness like that, in case you have to remove it while in the tree. It's sometimes easier to untangle lines by just disconnecting at the harness.

rope-a-dope · May 28, 2018

If you still have issues with the positioner releasing, you might want to try it with the finger guard lever taken off. It does nothing to change the action of the cam, but removes that big trigger that drops you if anything catches on it.
Im realizing the stiff wirecore will prevent the cam from fully engaging if it is stowed behind the d-ring. The positioner cam functions by pivoting under load and putting a slight bend in the line, but if the line is kept straight and has a wire core...it maybe is not allowing enough bend.

Jimmycrackcorn · May 29, 2018

Brocky said:
The sling is safe to use the way you have it. It's even one with a stronger break strength, than the usual 22 kN. I've found that I don't like to connect directly to the harness like that, in case you have to remove it while in the tree. It's sometimes easier to untangle lines by just disconnecting at the harness.

Ahh Ok.. Cool.. the thing was pretty cheap.. so i was iffy on it.. I got it at REI so i wasn't sure what to think.. Im also always concerned about country of manufacture.. I know crappy things can be made anywhere, but I'm always associating price points with quality..

Speaking of which.. you go on Amazon & see all the "Fusion" & "GM Climbing" gear.. obviously it's all China made stuff, but does anyone actually use it for life support scenarios? The gear always has ratings marked all over it & they do have a legitimate website, but it makes me wonder if there just doing the typical copy cat routine.. however, you see the same thing going on elsewhere.. like the isc d4 for example or the isc Rocker, you'll see it rebadged all over the place..

Which brings me to another point.. if China stuff is typically junk, what on Earth do the people of China use in their day to day life? You know.. like Law enforcement, Fire & Rescue, Military, Areonautics, Arborists etc.. they have to count on their products for life & limb. If i was to guess, they aren't importing everything for these scenarios, its probably made right there in China & bought with the same sense of pride when we buy USA/EU/DE/AU.. or wherever you are from...

Idk.. this is just something I've always wondered.. like everytime a Rescue crew hops into a Helicopter, are they wondering if the rotors are going to fly off?

Anyhow.. back to the AP2.. Yes, I'm not sure about having it permenant like that either.. i figured I'd give it a try.. i did pick up some smaller Screw Lock Carabiners that i can use as well, but this Webbing is the shortest link i could find.. I'm sure I'll will realize the down sides rather quick..

rope-a-dope said:
If you still have issues with the positioner releasing, you might want to try it with the finger guard lever taken off. It does nothing to change the action of the cam, but removes that big trigger that drops you if anything catches on it.
Im realizing the stiff wirecore will prevent the cam from fully engaging if it is stowed behind the d-ring. The positioner cam functions by pivoting under load and putting a slight bend in the line, but if the line is kept straight and has a wire core...it maybe is not allowing enough bend.

Yes! Exactly, it keeps it from functioning correctly.. Did u just try what i was talking about? Is your wire core new or is it fuzzed up & still happening?

Removing the trigger.. damn.. that's a good idea idea! Why did i not think of that..lol. I'll have to keep that in mind.. If i recall correctly with what i was mentioning before, I think it was the actual lanyard or maybe the body of the AP2 about to make contact with my bridge adjuster.. However, i do find myself keeping an eye on that big ole AP2 lever so maybe I'll try it like that..

So when i was at REI i saw this smaller 10.5mm PMI rope.. although it was their EZ Bend version it was really stiff.. I shot a note to PMI & i think I'm going to search out some of their 12mm Max Wear. Compared to the EZ Bend & how stiff that was, it should almost be wire like but at the same time i expect it to be able to bend in the correct fashion to work real nice in the AP2.. I would have just tried the EZ bend but it was just too skinny for my liking..

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rope-a-dope · May 29, 2018

I did it in my mind!
Take that big ass lever off, youll be happier. And try to let the tail relax a little, it wont pull you out of the tree cuz you are da boss

Jimmycrackcorn · May 30, 2018

rope-a-dope said:
I did it in my mind!
Take that big ass lever off, youll be happier. And try to let the tail relax a little, it wont pull you out of the tree cuz you are da boss

Rope-a-dope...
You a rope junkie or what? You ever get your hands on PMI's Max Wear? Is it pretty stiff?

That's right.. I might be "da boss".. but gravity is the CEO..[emoji6]

Speaking of gravity.. I seen a rather interesting docu series last night called "One Strange Rock".. it was about astronauts prospectives on Earth. It may have had some subtle political under tones but they were well hidden & it was pretty informative.. There's 10 of them.

I'm deff going to try the AP2 without handle.. thanks for all the advise guys..

One more off topic thing here.. if I'm using a 28in-30in e2e, what is the shortest hitch someone can use?

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123Craig · Jul 20, 2018

How's your flipline and positioner working out there for you Jimmy?

I've had the same problem in the past

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/art-positioner-s-cam-slipping.33816/

...and now it's happening again... This time, my 'trick' of wire brushing the flipline in water has made minimal difference... I'm going to have to try something else.

I suppose I just don't like the idea of having to replace the cam every so often... I'd rather try a solution cheaper and 'home designed'.

Did bending the spring in the AP2 help any?

I'm trying to think of further ways to 'thicken' up or rough the rope cover... Any ideas anyone?

JeffGu · Jul 20, 2018

I had an ART Positioner for a brief time and didn't like the idea of replacing cams, so sold it to a friend who really liked it... unfortunetly, it didn't have the cam for 5/8" lanyards, so I never got to try it on my homebrew wirecore fliplines. Really would have liked to try it, because I seriously doubt if they would cause any wear to the cams.

With all other types of adjusters that I have tried... they grab instantly and very tightly. There's an interesting characteristic to the air hose sheath that if you shock load the flipline, the adjuster slips quite slowly and grabs again right away. Some of mine are several years old, and there's no wear on any of the adjusters like I see on the rope lanyards. I'm still using a prototype that is more than ten years old, when I need a fairly long one. It's about 16' long, so doesn't get used all that much, but doesn't look much different than when I made it.

Very experimental and I'm not going to recommend making your own fliplines because, well... you know what the response will be. I can tell you that I have never had any issues with them and neither have the couple of friends I've made them for. You can wash tree sap and pitch off them with any solvent you want to use, because the sheath doesn't seem to be the least affected by any of them. I quite often use either WD-40 or gasoline.