Career awaits!!!

[southsoundtree]

Invest in equipment? Yard space? Why is it so hard for companies to invest in the personnel to operate, maintain, and generate material for the equipment?

What do you mean by "invest in the personnel"?

 

[Reach]

What do you mean by "invest in the personnel"?

I don’t know, because we spend far more on our staff than we do on anything else! Between training, wages, and bonuses (I’ll elaborate on our plan later, it’s rather generous and incentivizing) the staff costs more than anything else!

 

[Chris Schultz]

What do you mean by "invest in the personnel"?

By paying people a respectable living wage, getting them educated, sending them to events etc…. Kudos to y’all that actually do this, shame on you that treat talent like expendable shit. It’s not rocket science. I chuckle when I see posts asking why good help is hard to find, then you see the wages they’re offering……

 

[Reach]

I don’t know, because we spend far more on our staff than we do on anything else! Between training, wages, and bonuses (I’ll elaborate on our plan later, it’s rather generous and incentivizing) the staff costs more than anything else!

Our bonus plan is what we call a “Pay For Performance” plan. Every month, a substantial percentage of the profits of the company is given to the employees. That percentage is divided between the employees based on their individual performance - we have a baseline number for each employee, which can go up if they’re really impressive that month, or can go down if that employee is not pulling their weight.

So in short, an employee who is going above and beyond is rewarded for it, where one who won’t show up on time or gripes and
drags his feet all day will be “rewarded” for his performance as well. I’m happy to try to explain more in a private message to anyone who wants to try what we do.

 

[southsoundtree]

Someone said a quality company looking for a quality employee is like a unicorn looking for a leprechaun.

I generally ask people what they are willing to, and wanting to earn, and go from there.

 

[AlanKekoa]

I don’t know what’s harder to find an quality company or an quality climber, my personal experience is that most companies that complain about being unable to find good climbers aren’t running a good show. Especially when it comes to operational safety people will talk a big game about how they run their business but often will throw safety to the wind and not do as they say.

 

[Masterjones]

I am with you here. Most of the problem is most customers, tree companies and climbers dont know good work from bad, qualified from unqualified.

Anytime you blame others you will lose due to disempowermemt. There is just more opportunity for you to respond in an empowered way. Every bid I do I am educating the potential customer between low quality work and high quality work.

 

[AlanKekoa]

I can understand your frustrations there. I don’t disagree with wages going up, but the meteoric rise all at one time is more likely to cause greater problems than it will solve, not the least of which being resentment from those who have been working for years directed towards the “new guy” who is making what they worked so hard to earn. Or worse, just as much as they’re earning now!

I think that mentality of infighting and resentment about wages really needs to change, I mean I worked for years for less then I should have because I didn’t know my worth, however we shouldn’t be shooting ourselves in the foot and holding back our entire industry because of a bad mentality, if you look at almost any other skilled labor profession, that can’t even compare to the risks of life and limb that we take they’re making usually more then we do. Overall I think people are just getting wiser and smarter and the ability to connect thru the internet, etc. and all the other advancements in the industry to show that we are not just all cowboys with chainsaws and that we deserve to be rightfully respected and payed well for our worth. There’s so many other avenues to make the kind of money a lot of these companies are trying to pay while not putting your life at risk everyday. As much as we love climbing trees and take such strong pride in our work, there’s a point where things just don’t add up.

 

[VenasNursery]

I think that mentality of infighting and resentment about wages really needs to change, I mean I worked for years for less then I should have because I didn’t know my worth, however we shouldn’t be shooting ourselves in the foot and holding back our entire industry because of a bad mentality, if you look at almost any other skilled labor profession, that can’t even compare to the risks of life and limb that we take they’re making usually more then we do. Overall I think people are just getting wiser and smarter and the ability to connect thru the internet, etc. and all the other advancements in the industry to show that we are not just all cowboys with chainsaws and that we deserve to be rightfully respected and payed well for our worth. There’s so many other avenues to make the kind of money a lot of these companies are trying to pay while not putting your life at risk everyday. As much as we love climbing trees and take such strong pride in our work, there’s a point where things just don’t add up.

I agree with what some of what you’re saying but insinuating that your life is threatened everyday is ridiculous
Either learn better practices or don’t bid on trees out of your league
Not trying to be a jerk but come on Sir

 

[AlanKekoa]

I agree with what some of what you’re saying but insinuating that your life is threatened everyday is ridiculous
Either learn better practices or don’t bid on trees out of your league
Not trying to be a jerk but come on Sir

My apologies sir, either I mistyped or you misread however that is not what I was insinuating, just that our lives are on the line so to speak, many of the best in the industry had their share of mishaps in their careers as well. To me sir it sounds like you’re insinuating that I don’t know what I’m doing, with your comment “Either learn better practices or don’t bid on trees out of your league” That’s a good one, I’ll have to remember that one to tell all the other wannabe tree guys who start businesses but then complain they can’t find a climber who would do all the stuff they’re to sacred/unable too perform. they’re all just jealous because they know I’m the best. Lol (Utilizing sarcasm here) All I’m saying is just look at the percentages of deaths in our industry to any either in a lot of our scenarios one fowl move can mean death, I take this very seriously I have a family that comes above anything else.

 

[Chris Schultz]

I agree with what some of what you’re saying but insinuating that your life is threatened everyday is ridiculous
Either learn better practices or don’t bid on trees out of your league
Not trying to be a jerk but come on Sir

I don’t feel he was insinuating his life is threatened everyday…. This shit is dangerous, more dangerous than most skilled labor jobs, all there is to it.

 

[Reach]

I think that mentality of infighting and resentment about wages really needs to change, I mean I worked for years for less then I should have because I didn’t know my worth, however we shouldn’t be shooting ourselves in the foot and holding back our entire industry because of a bad mentality, if you look at almost any other skilled labor profession, that can’t even compare to the risks of life and limb that we take they’re making usually more then we do. Overall I think people are just getting wiser and smarter and the ability to connect thru the internet, etc. and all the other advancements in the industry to show that we are not just all cowboys with chainsaws and that we deserve to be rightfully respected and payed well for our worth. There’s so many other avenues to make the kind of money a lot of these companies are trying to pay while not putting your life at risk everyday. As much as we love climbing trees and take such strong pride in our work, there’s a point where things just don’t add up.

I’m not saying that we as an industry should not or could not pay more, I feel that, at least in this area, tree services have traditionally paid better than most other industries. That’s changing suddenly since Walmart has doubled their starting wage in the last year, which is my real complaint.

Our industry is hazardous, but much less so than roofing, and we pay as well or better than they do. Many of the mechanical trades pay better than we do, but most of those trades require a license for the individual, and verifiable experience or schooling to get that license. Their work is also inspected nearly every time they do it, and they are generally held to high standards. As an industry, we are none of those. No license, no schooling or experience requirement, no inspectors to approve the finished product. I believe that if we as an industry want to be respected the way the other trades are, we must push our standards up to the level of the other trades.

 

[AlanKekoa]

I’m not saying that we as an industry should not or could not pay more, I feel that, at least in this area, tree services have traditionally paid better than most other industries. That’s changing suddenly since Walmart has doubled their starting wage in the last year, which is my real complaint.

Our industry is hazardous, but much less so than roofing, and we pay as well or better than they do. Many of the mechanical trades pay better than we do, but most of those trades require a license for the individual, and verifiable experience or schooling to get that license. Their work is also inspected nearly every time they do it, and they are generally held to high standards. As an industry, we are none of those. No license, no schooling or experience requirement, no inspectors to approve the finished product. I believe that if we as an industry want to be respected the way the other trades are, we must push our standards up to the level of the other trades.

I totally agree that we need to push our standards up as a whole so that company owners, climbers, and groundies alike are held to overall standards so that less careless injuries and deaths occur and at the same time everyone is also compensated better. We do have licensing in terms of the ISA Arborist Certification, but definitely not a standard that’s enforced in the private sector, it’s just also interested that you could get a job as a certified arborist just walking around looking at trees all day and be making the same or more than a climbing arborist. I’m not sure where you got the statistics that roofing is more dangerous than tree work however every the statistics I’ve seen say the opposite, don’t get me wrong roofing is hard work and I’ve done it but it can’t compare to tree work for multiple reasons. I know we are all trying to do the best by ourselves, each other and the industry in this forum.

 

[Reach]

I totally agree that we need to push our standards up as a whole so that company owners, climbers, and groundies alike are held to overall standards so that less careless injuries and deaths occur and at the same time everyone is also compensated better. We do have licensing in terms of the ISA Arborist Certification, but definitely not a standard that’s enforced in the private sector, it’s just also interested that you could get a job as a certified arborist just walking around looking at trees all day and be making the same or more than a climbing arborist. I’m not sure where you got the statistics that roofing is more dangerous than tree work however every the statistics I’ve seen say the opposite, don’t get me wrong roofing is hard work and I’ve done it but it can’t compare to tree work for multiple reasons. I know we are all trying to do the best by ourselves, each other and the industry in this forum.

I do not wish to argue with you, but want to point out that an ISA Arborist Certification is not a license, it is a certification. A license is a legally required credential to permit an individual to perform an action. A certification is a notice that an individual has a certain level of knowledge. Big difference between the two. A certification can be required to obtain a license, but the converse does not work.

I am a licensed commercial pesticide applicator. Also, a licensed commercial driver, and a certified electrician. If I wish to work as a truck driver or a pesticide applicator anywhere in my state, I pull out my license and away I go. If I wish to work as an electrician in any major city, I must first obtain an electrician’s license, as my certification does not give me legal permission to perform a service.

A Certified Arborist who is doing consulting, and doing it properly, likely has spent years in school to obtain the knowledge (and a degree to prove it) necessary to perform his job. A climber likely has not. He may (quite unlikely) have as much knowledge as the consultant, but he does not have the credentials to give him the standing to use that knowledge as a primary means of earning income.

My data for the danger of roofing versus tree care comes from the federal government, by way of the insurance industry. According to the Worker’s Compensation Bureau, roofers have more frequent accidents than do tree trimmers. This is why roofers pay higher worker’s compensation rates than we do in the tree industry.

 

[AlanKekoa]

I do not wish to argue with you, but want to point out that an ISA Arborist Certification is not a license, it is a certification. A license is a legally required credential to permit an individual to perform an action. A certification is a notice that an individual has a certain level of knowledge. Big difference between the two. A certification can be required to obtain a license, but the converse does not work.

I am a licensed commercial pesticide applicator. Also, a licensed commercial driver, and a certified electrician. If I wish to work as a truck driver or a pesticide applicator anywhere in my state, I pull out my license and away I go. If I wish to work as an electrician in any major city, I must first obtain an electrician’s license, as my certification does not give me legal permission to perform a service.

A Certified Arborist who is doing consulting, and doing it properly, likely has spent years in school to obtain the knowledge (and a degree to prove it) necessary to perform his job. A climber likely has not. He may (quite unlikely) have as much knowledge as the consultant, but he does not have the credentials to give him the standing to use that knowledge as a primary means of earning income.

My data for the danger of roofing versus tree care comes from the federal government, by way of the insurance industry. According to the Worker’s Compensation Bureau, roofers have more frequent accidents than do tree trimmers. This is why roofers pay higher worker’s compensation rates than we do in the tree industry.

I did not realize it was an argument, I’ve done both so I have a good understanding of what goes into both, and again would have to disagre most college graduated consultants I know, know far less than those who worked thru the industry to gain the necessary work experience to become ISA certified. Do you have a source for those statistics? It’s not close to what I’m seeing. It would be great if licensing that actually had a backing to to make positive change happened, one of the biggest issues i see is the biggest companies in the industry generally do and promote substandard work hacking practices and lack of safety, and don’t push a higher standard, competition for contracts and caring about the money more than the people, a lot of lack in training as well. Overall I just wish the industry had better overall standards, business owners and capability to keep quality employees, as a climber I generally find my safety most at risk by the hand of others who don’t take it as seriously, I’m sure your running a good outfit and pay for where you’re located, none of this was ever intended to be an argument simply talking about the overall standards and hoping to also hear how we can all work together to do things better, however like always I seem to hear more feedback on the reasons why things are the way they are which are generally false rather than ideas of how we can do better. Usually it is the case that the best thing we can do as climbing arborists who are very serious about our job is to go out on our own, work for a likemind small business owner who gets it and had a niche or keep the responsibility and determination of jobs on ourselves contract climbing.

 

[hammsarborcare]

Here's the deal, its a gig culture. You will never win against the short term thinking of the opportunist. That contract climber makes more than any employee, but he is doing big jobs everyday that normal employees can't and working with good crews and bad alike. They also play in a field that can lead to injury and many of them are a bit hand to mouth on there finances. Then for those that begin building a client base, they all end up where the rest of us are at looking for help and realizing their efficiency declines with every member of the crew that is less skilled than they are, and the rate they get as a contract climber is not enough per manhour to cover employees and equipment. We offer 4 ten hour days Tuesday thru Thursday, volunteer OT, Vacation and life insurance if a person qualifies and matching IRA with 6 holidays that usually translate into 4 day weekends. We also have a positive culture in a TCIA Accredited company with good equipment and solid training. I'm an ISA Board Certified Master Arborist WI-0317B, won the Wisconsin chapter TCC a couple of times in my youth and we have several certified arborists on staff and two degreed foresters. We have been able to hire several individuals over the past two years. I am fortunate that our top climbers are myself, my son and my son-in-law, but we will buy equipment for anyone that wants to learn. We just keep an employment listing open continuously and focus on culture and training from within. I recently started a YouTube/hammsarborcare channel to transfer my knowledge to a platform. I think the number one thing people are looking for today is flexibility. A four day work week enables the skilled individuals to earn alternative income on a three day weekend while maintaining the security of a full time job. Focusing solely on money isn't a good way to run a company and it isn't a good way to look for a job. One of our core values is unlimited abundance. I believe, even in a tight workforce market, that there are an abundance of people that would fit our culture and would want to work with us. We will focus on the right things and they will come. There you go, that's my take.
Kevin Hamm

 

[Serf Life]

I think the number one thing people are looking for today is flexibility. A four day work week enables the skilled individuals to earn alternative income on a three day weekend while maintaining the security of a full time job.

Well put.

 

[hammsarborcare]

I’m not saying that we as an industry should not or could not pay more, I feel that, at least in this area, tree services have traditionally paid better than most other industries. That’s changing suddenly since Walmart has doubled their starting wage in the last year, which is my real complaint.

Our industry is hazardous, but much less so than roofing, and we pay as well or better than they do. Many of the mechanical trades pay better than we do, but most of those trades require a license for the individual, and verifiable experience or schooling to get that license. Their work is also inspected nearly every time they do it, and they are generally held to high standards. As an industry, we are none of those. No license, no schooling or experience requirement, no inspectors to approve the finished product. I believe that if we as an industry want to be respected the way the other trades are, we must push our standards up to the level of the other trades.

Be careful what you ask for. Tree care is one of the last frontiers that can start a business on true grit and desire. Many of us did that. Interesting that once many get there with established businesses, they want to go to the legislature and litigate the little guy out of the very ladder they themselves climbed. If I hire a highly skilled individual who is entrepreneurial, no incentive will keep him or her from going their way and I have actually helped those individuals start their own businesses. My income has never gone down because of it and I or my descendants may well purchase their companies when they are tired. It all comes down to focusing on your business and the people you have and create a positive culture that helps people improve without worrying about losing them and constantly be looking for the diamond in the rough that is teachable and then teach them. Again, my top climber is my son, so that is a blessing I cannot deny, he has the incentive of succession. But today's self propelled lifts are doing a lot to equalize the field. We have and still do get referrals from other companies that can't do a job because of the technical climbing, but we also get jobs referred from climbers who can't do a job because the tree is too dead. I once heard a quote, "I'm running a tree care business not a tree climbing business." I used to run a tree climbing business, but age has brought a more well rounded approach. Even my son enjoys the lift once in a while. There is always a delicate balance between numbers and personnel. Know your numbers, invest in your personnel to the best of those numbers, and have no regrets if someone leaves; help them leave if that is the better thing for them. People often leave for people reasons vs money reasons anyway.

Kevin Hamm