Zigzag and rope for natural crotch

[Handy2]

I've been climbing for a while now on a hitchclimber drt setup, and just ordered a Petzl Zigzag (very excited). I've done a lot of internet searching to try to figure out the best rope to use it with, but haven't found clear answers (I know, everyone has their own opinions, but what I'm looking for is recommendations from anyone who is climbing the way I am trying to climb).

Here's the thing: So far I have been happy with the hitchclimber--I use it with a tight schwabish (usually 5 over 1) so I have basically no sitback, which I like a lot for positioning. I have found that 8mm beeline and Samson 16 strand arbormaster ropes work very well together with this setup. The only thing I don't like is how limited I am in descent speeds: If I try to go fast, I'll burn the hitch cord. I'm getting a Zigzag because I would like to descend faster and be able to do swings and jumps. So I'm looking for a rope that will hold up to repeated fast descents with the Zigzag, and will also survive natural crotch use. I'm not opposed to using a friction saver, but I usually will move my tie in point a couple times per climb, and where I throw to is often too messy to set a friction saver without it getting stuck, hence all the natural crotch use. I should be getting a chunk of Blue Moon in the next couple days, but I want to know if anyone has found a better option before I spring for a 200' rope. (Imori, mabybe?)

I weigh about 180 pounds with gear, probably 190 if I have a chainsaw. I'm not really concerned about self tending or rope stretch at this point.

 

[Mowerr]

Ya I'm around the same weight and the zig zag is good with everything..
It's just more friction the thicker the rope is that u use.
Ive found I like any type of rope is the 11mm-12mm range.
Warning, the thinner the rope, the less friction and the faster you go. If it's a brand new rope it might creep a little and not stop so fast but once you break in the rope your good.
Don't worry about friction savers unless your trimming and don't wanna scar the tree. The ropes can handle natural crotch.

 

[deevo]

Drenaline is great with the ZZ, as is blue moon & tachyon

 

[vkoot]

Ya I'm around the same weight and the zig zag is good with everything..
It's just more friction the thicker the rope is that u use.
Ive found I like any type of rope is the 11mm-12mm range.
Warning, the thinner the rope, the less friction and the faster you go. If it's a brand new rope it might creep a little and not stop so fast but once you break in the rope your good.
Don't worry about friction savers unless your trimming and don't wanna scar the tree. The ropes can handle natural crotch.

Not all ropes handle natural crotches the same though. The petzl flow rope for me at least seems to be not as tough as other ropes. Gets caught and knicked way more than normal. So I'd say it's more for just ascent, or used with a friction saver.

 

[Crimsonking]

Blue moon handles natural fork climbing better than others. Imori won’t give you any more durability. Going to 16 strand is the only way to get better longevity for that style climbing. My Samson ivy sees a fair amount of natty climbing and still looks great 6 months later. It’s very similar to your blue moon.

 

[Jonny]

No doubt.
16 strands suck for SRT, but very much of that bounce/ elongation is negated when used doubled. I never knew how stretchy my XTC-16 and Safety Blue were until I tried them SRT. Haven’t used Arbormaster Bluestreak in a long time, but I think 16s are all pretty close in performance.
If you’re sure the rope will be used strictly for DdRT, keep going with the Arbormaster, it’s tough stuff.
There’s a lot of good ropes that do both though. I like Fly.

 

[Mowerr]

Yea petzl for some reason doesn't make good arborist ropes. I haven't heard anything really good about their ropes or splices.
Yale's 11.7s are great. Since I got a hank of ivy about a year ago I haven't had any desire to use anything else at work. It works great for all applications.
For me, when I get a new rope and it's not milked yet... I tend to notice every tiny pick and fuzz or blemish untill it's broke in, and milked I don't really notice anything little.
I guess what I'm saying is that when a rope is brand new you tend pay closer attention to every little blemish bc their easier to spot and bc you just dropped good money on something you care about a lot.
Don't stress natural crotching too much.
Use good we'll respected manufacturer's with good reputations and you got nothing to worry about.
For example try to look up threads that give praise to any of petzls ropes and your gonna have a hard time finding a good review on here.
Then try to look up Yale's 11.7 series and you'll see tons of good reviews.

 

[Handy2]

Thank you for the replies. Are there any negative effects when using a Zigzag long term on 16 strand rope for drt? Faster wear on the Zigzag?

 

[Mowerr]

Yes I believe the thicker the rope and the rougher the cover on the rope wears the links quicker

 

[AdkEric]

If you want a bit smaller diameter than traditional 16 strands, Courant now makes a 16 strand that is 11.7mm. I've not tried it or read any long term reviews but it could be promising.

Komora - Courant

Darwin was right about evolution! Take the DNA of the Kanopa and let it mutate for a decade… to finally present you our new 11.7mm Komora 16 strands rope! Its updated sheath gives superior abrasion resistance and feeds very smoothly through all popular mechanical friction devices on the market...

www.mycourant.com

 

[Handy2]

So I got the Zigzag, and I tried it out. . . . and it feels like I’m cheating. It is so much easier to move around the canopy. Also, I was a little surprised at how much play there was between the links. Just wasn’t expecting that. This is great!

 

[Handy2]

Yes I believe the thicker the rope and the rougher the cover on the rope wears the links quicker

Do you have experience with this, Mowerr? I was thinking that a thicker rope might wear the links more slowly, since the same friction will be acting on more surface area, decreasing the force at any one point on the Zigzag.

Also, would a nubbier 16 strand rope (not rougher, just nubbier) actually induce more wear, or would a smoother 24 strand wear it faster? I don’t know what the driving forces are in Zigzag wear, but I wonder if the gaps between the nubs on a 16 strand would keep the links from heating up as much. In my experience, it’s easier to get rope burn on smooth ropes than it is on bumpy ones (and any descent at a given speed on a hitch cord is easier on the hitch cord when done on a nubbier rope), hence my wondering.

If it is true that a thicker, nubbier rope will induce more wear, and you were to use the Zigzag natural crotch with a 16 strand, the additional friction at the TIP should keep forces lower on the Zigzag, perhaps mitigating the increased wear effect of a bigger, bumpier rope.

We can theorize all we want, and we might get it right that way, but we could be much more certain with empirical evidence.

 

[moss]

You can waste a 16-strand in one day natural crotching. Yeah, I’ve done it. Any kind of Arb rope’s service life is shortened significantly with regular bare-backing (shut up @JeffGu ) [joke].

With a short leather or conduit sleeve cambium/rope saver install/deinstall is quick and easy.

And not to mention... natural crotching conifers? Ugh.
-AJ

 

[Birdyman88]

With a short leather or conduit sleeve cambium/rope saver install/deinstall is quick and easy.

I would seriously consider @moss advice here. I have a 80' hank of 16 strand safety blue I use with 8mm OP cord for really quick setups. I used it without a leather sleeve for a long time and it held up well. BUT, I noticed a significant different in the way the hitch behaved vs another 120 hank of safety blue, same OP hitch used with leather sleeve. The non-sleeve setup bound up more, so I finally put a sleeve on and everything is fine now. Why? I think I know, but I'm reluctant to say because I might be way off base. But, I think it has to do with the friction in the crotch changing the way the hitch behaves. But, to answer your question, Safety Blue 16 strand has held up well for me in natural crotch as long as you don't bomb out on it. I doubt any polyester rope is gonna hold up to bombing natural crotch.

 

[Mowerr]

That's crazy bro. I've never heard of anybody killing a 16 strand rope in one day unless it was used for rigging

 

[Mowerr]

The zz is mad durable. Don't stress too much about the way different ropes will wear on it. I'm sure you just want it to last as long as possible and I think if you do break it or wear it out prematurely it won't be from your choice of rope.

 

[moss]

That's crazy bro. I've never heard of anybody killing a 16 strand rope in one day unless it was used for rigging

It was dumb but a good lesson a number of years back. Got my line into a tight V crotch on a crusty old black oak, had left my rope sleeve at home. Was taking out a large hung dead top, had to do the job. Retired the rope after. It is remarkable how long ropes will last if you protect them from bark friction climbing on moving rope systems.
-AJ

 

[Mowerr]

It was dumb but a good lesson a number of years back. Got my line into a tight V crotch on a crusty old black oak, had left my rope sleeve at home. Was taking out a large hung dead top, had to do the job. Retired the rope after. It is remarkable how long ropes will last if you protect them from bark friction climbing on moving rope systems.
-A

Which rope or manufacturer was it?
What did it look like after that made you certain you had to retire it?
And did you at least use it for rigging after?
It wasn't brand new before this job.... was it?

 

[27RMT0N]

I'll second/third the opinion for a rope-sleeve setup.

You mention moving the tie-in often during a climb, and a rope-sleeve is perfect for that. You can just keep it installed on the line, and move it as you please. So much better in every respect than natural crotching, plus it's easy to install from the ground in many/most situations. I have and use in certain situations what I call my 'primitive' setup, which is a 1/2" line which is super durable, cord prusick and Dan House Rope Sleeve. I use it on nasty/pitchy removals, or situations where I'm in messy/thick trees (topped firs or something like that) where I don't trust a 'normal' friction saver to come out reliably. Because it is just a straight line with the rope, it doesn't tend to catch on things when you pull it out (unlike the 't' shape you wind up with adjustable friction savers) and because it is a heavy end, it doesn't let the tail of your rope or a different type friction saver 'whip' around a limb and get stuck. Spliced ropes are a hassle with it because a splice wont fit through and it's a pain to pull your full rope length through, so I just tie the biner on, and when it's time to pull it out from the ground, take the carabiner off, put an overhand in the end of the line, and it comes out of the tree every time.

(recently decided I am going to upgrade this to another ZigZag)

 

[G00p]

Tachyon is a rugged line that will perform well with the zigzag and hold up to natural crotch climbing. I climb a lot of wide-spread, bushy oaks and have the same issue with setting friction savers from the ground... I'll usually bring one up with me and set it aloft, though. It's all about mastering retrieval if you have to change your TIP a lot while climbing.