Moss Cinching Lanyard prototype

[LordFarkwad]

Always looking for quick ways to cinch, last week I tried the following at the desk with Eashook Open, and it seemed pretty solid. I'm not sure that Petzl would approve - I'd actually like to know their answer - but I can't find anything expressly forbidding it in the manual.

Whatcha think?

 

[Phil]

Looks like it would work just fine other than it's not retrievable from a distance without a tremendous amount of effort.

 

[LordFarkwad]

Looks like it would work just fine other than it's not retrievable from a distance without a tremendous amount of effort.

Only way I can think of is by hooking other lanyard end - or throw line or something - through the blocked biner and pulling it to you, requiring 3x the amount of rope to do. But we are talking about a lanyard here, so that's probably not feasible.

Normal when I use any cinching configuration like this with a lanyard, it is for work positioning or a temporary excursion away from where it's anchored, and so retrieval isn't an issue.

 

[moss]

Used my 90' shackle lanyard as second line in a "V" to float over a storm damaged red maple yesterday, retrieval is easy in this mode, I have an unlimited mulltiple redirect configuration to test next.

-AJ

 

[Phil]

I'm not gonna lie, that looks clean and sexy. At a certain length I think it no longer becomes a lanyard though haha. You're using two full climbing systems haha

 

[moss]

I'm not gonna lie, that looks clean and sexy. At a certain length I think it no longer becomes a lanyard though haha. You're using two full climbing systems haha

True!

 

[Jonny]

Did you break test any of those bow shackles with slic pins yet, @moss ?
Curious how they do when pulled apart from side to side. Wondering if the pin will fail before the shackle.

 

[moss]

Did you break test any of those bow shackles with slic pins yet, @moss ?
Curious how they do when pulled apart from side to side. Wondering if the pin will fail before the shackle.

Not yet, have been massively busy, will do the first chance I get.

Here are the strength values for the milled Singing Tree Quickie, suspect the numbers will be similar:

• Major Axis: 30kN
• Minor Axis: 15kN

-AJ

 

[Chaplain242]

I won't get too far off topic with my response and I actually have some stuff to add to the lanyard discussion.

There is a difference between one handing a arborist saw and side loading a crab. A top handle saw is literally designed and balanced to be comfortably operated one handed. That's the whole point of it. The fact it has a specific hook on the back for a lanyard is just smartly added convenience. One handing a saw is still using the saw the way it was designed. It's simply cutting wood. Granted one handing is more prone to lose of control in the event of a kickback, but one handing to me is a technique that can be used when the operator has exhausted other two handed options for a cut. Side loading a carabiner is straight up not using it how it was designed.

In regards to not teaching new climbers the dark arts and not limiting our discussion on new gear...I agree we should be showing them the dark arts and not limiting discussion. (We're having a discussion right now!) They will see it at some point anyway so it's our responsibility to say, "you may see people cinch a carabiner like this but they are not designed to be used like this. Never use this for a primary lifeline" or something along those lines. I don't like seeing it fully legitimized because the branch is a big enough diameter. If it's going to be shown, it should have the surgeon general's warning presented along with it. If you get your lanyard design lined out and to market I'll be the first one proclaiming "people used to cinch carabiners then this magnificent bastard named Moss pioneered this much better, safer solution that's now available at all fine tree gear retailers".

Part of my gripe with this is that this industry struggles to be legitimate in the eyes of the public. How many times do you see companies working with no hardhats, no harnesses in the bucket, free climbing with spikes until they get to their tie in. All the time. We are a community of professionals who operate in the same market as the fly by nights. We should practice what we preach... especially with life line components.

Now on to the fun lanyard related material!
Moss you inspired me to try a couple thing that will now be a permanent addition to my climbing tool box. My lanyard has no splices. It's a poachers knot with a plastic thimble. I prefer this over a splice because I really like how it fits in my hand...and it's cheaper haha. I keep an 6mm ocean prusik on it at all times. It has never bothered me just chilling on the lanyard. My inspired options was to use a quickie just above the scaffold knot for a cinch. It worked but was roughing up my tape job and I could see it trying to tighten the eye more when I weighted the line. The second inspired option was to use the quickie through the ocean prusik. That's the winner. It's awesome. Additionally, I always use my quickie with a plastic thimble because I like the bend radius and if I drop the sucker it's easier to find. The thimble also stows perfectly in the bridge D on the treemotion Evo. The thimble will not come off the quickie unless I force it off so it's essentially one single bit of kit.

like the thimble

 

[moss]

Which reminds me, I've been climbing non-stop lately on my 85' (or whatever it is somewhere between 80 and 90') "Woods Lanyard" for work and rec. For rec it is meeting my demand that I'm able to access any tree in the northeastern U.S. forest with this relatively short rope. Cinching through the slic pn Bow Shackle is my go to for initial access and tree-to-tree transfers. For advancing I used the quick "ring cinch" through the Bow Shackle (don't need to open the slic pin). For canopy movement and climbing around the crown I'm cinching through the Bow Shackle for easy remote retrieval. I'm using the tail of my rope clipped into the red DMM oval on the "front eye" as the retrieval. Everything's clean and simple, no extra gadgetry involved.

Here's after I just pulled out my anchor from another tree after a traverse:

Note on wear and tear: I've had muscle-bound people load up on this cinch configuration canopy anchor hard and give it their all, and have put a lot of time on it working in demanding situations more than rec'ing. The stitching is completely stable/unchanged, the custom Bow Shackle looks brand-new. The field testing results are thumbs up.
-AJ

 

[LordFarkwad]

Which reminds me, I've been climbing non-stop lately on my 85' (or whatever it is somewhere between 80 and 90') "Woods Lanyard" for work and rec. For rec it is meeting my demand that I'm able to access any tree in the northeastern U.S. forest with this relatively short rope. Cinching through the slic pn Bow Shackle is my go to for initial access and tree-to-tree transfers. For advancing I used the quick "ring cinch" through the Bow Shackle (don't need to open the slic pin). For canopy movement and climbing around the crown I'm cinching through the Bow Shackle for easy remote retrieval. I'm using the tail of my rope clipped into the red DMM oval on the "front eye" as the retrieval. Everything's clean and simple, no extra gadgetry involved.

Here's after I just pulled out my anchor from another tree after a traverse:

Note on wear and tear: I've had muscle-bound people load up on this cinch configuration canopy anchor hard and give it their all, and have put a lot of time on it working in demanding situations more than rec'ing. The stitching is completely stable/unchanged, the custom Bow Shackle looks brand-new. The field testing results are thumbs up.
-AJ

You using a monkey's fist type of method to set a line prior to a traverse, or are you hooking, or what? I thought you were a pretty prolific hooker, but maybe i'm thinking of someone else.

 

[Njdelaney]

A throwbag clipped to the end of the line works just fine for up to 10-15' in my experience. I just keep one clipped to the saddle.

 

[moss]

You using a monkey's fist type of method to set a line prior to a traverse, or are you hooking, or what? I thought you were a pretty prolific hooker, but maybe i'm thinking of someone else.

I was a prolific hooker back in the day, that was another life. Me and JeffGu used to rule the streets ;-) Yeah, that was a Captain Hook traverse access. Hell of a good throw into the other tree if I may say so ;-)
-AJ

 

[ptktrees]

read and seen some really great information here . . like moss , i side-load my lanyard ends . . did not know what a no, no that was . . i never felt unsafe ;o/ i like how it keeps me in a just right position to make my cuts.
curious what participants here , , think of JB's video ?

 

[moss]

read and seen some really great information here . . like moss , i side-load my lanyard ends . . did not know what a no, no that was . . i never felt unsafe ;o/ i like how it keeps me in a just right position to make my cuts.
curious what participants here , , think of JB's video ?

Yep that works. It's a hair too fidgety for me, I lanyard in SRS mode more than I do on the D's or in MRS mode, I think JB's technique is excellent if SRS is not your primary lanyard mode. The exception being take-downs spiking on the spar where the D's clearly make the most sense.
-AJ

 

[Lignotuber]

read and seen some really great information here . . like moss , i side-load my lanyard ends . . did not know what a no, no that was . . i never felt unsafe ;o/ i like how it keeps me in a just right position to make my cuts.
curious what participants here , , think of JB's video ?

I dig JB's technique but it doesn't seem to cinch all that well and isn't really retrivable. I know Moss's lanyard is way better but what are thoughts on using a clipped daisy chain hitch for simple retrivable cinching lanyard when srs lanyard isn't your primary mode? It does use up a little rope and takes 2 hands but it's quick, non-triloading and unless otherwise convinced I'd consider it life support... or I guess you could just throw a quickie in there or take the biner off and tie a running bowline lol. Idk, well done Moss

 

[ptktrees]

I dig JB's technique but it doesn't seem to cinch all that well and isn't really retrivable. I know Moss's lanyard is way better but what are thoughts on using a clipped daisy chain hitch for simple retrivable cinching lanyard when srs lanyard isn't your primary mode? It does use up a little rope and takes 2 hands but it's quick, non-triloading and unless otherwise convinced I'd consider it life support... or I guess you could just throw a quickie in there or take the biner off and tie a running bowline lol. Idk, well done Moss

I'm hoping it's all life support and the idea of remotely retrievable is icing on the cake ;o))

 

[moss]

I dig JB's technique but it doesn't seem to cinch all that well and isn't really retrivable. I know Moss's lanyard is way better but what are thoughts on using a clipped daisy chain hitch for simple retrivable cinching lanyard when srs lanyard isn't your primary mode? It does use up a little rope and takes 2 hands but it's quick, non-triloading and unless otherwise convinced I'd consider it life support... or I guess you could just throw a quickie in there or take the biner off and tie a running bowline lol. Idk, well done Moss

I don't know that my set-up is better than anything else but for a positioning lanyard I'm not interested in making it retrievable, the configuration and retrieval time is usually going to be longer than just going to it and taking it out. I can use a Captain Hook for example if I want strong retrievable positioning help from a support further away from me.

The daisy chain set-up looks solid for a "further away" second anchor. I have a simpler way of doing it that uses less line but if I post it I'll get accused of contributing to a future death ;-)

Always a challenge finding the balance between getting the functionality you want and not creating complexity/rope management problems that will irritate you in the long run.
-AJ

 

[Lignotuber]

I don't know that my set-up is better than anything else but for a positioning lanyard I'm not interested in making it retrievable, the configuration and retrieval time is usually going to be longer than just going to it and taking it out. I can use a Captain Hook for example if I want strong retrievable positioning help from a support further away from me.

The daisy chain set-up looks solid for a "further away" second anchor. I have a simpler way of doing it that uses less line but if I post it I'll get accused of contributing to a future death ;-)

Always a challenge finding the balance between getting the functionality you want and not creating complexity/rope management problems that will irritate you in the long run.
-AJ

Thanks Moss, yeah the only time I could see a retrievable lanyard really being that practical would be coming back from a difficult limb walk or something but setting up MRS would take less time and is usually possible. The daisy hitch is super easy to set up with a long retrievable tail compared to say a running bowline though. I was thinking of beast horn variations or slip knots that would work too but they would surely be positioning only and need a secondary life support line. Perhaps like your simpler way lol..

 

[Jonny]

Do Slic pins used in life support applications need 2 internal cotters, and other applications just 1 cotter is ok? Rope runner and quickie slics are 2, the wrench is 1 because it’s not primary life support?