unions and tree workers

klimbinfool

klimbinfool

Location
magalia california
I think this subject has been posted before, but I never followed it.

what do you think the pros and cons are of having a union for the tree workers?

Myself , I'm in a union, but only because I have to be. However, I do think a union under the embrella of another organization would bennifit a lot of tree workers and maybe the employers as well.Or is there a union already going for the tree industry that I dont know about ?

Lets here some thoughts.

Greg
 
NO NO NO ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
I already have entirely too many entities telling me on a daily basis exactly how I am supposed to go about my personal busines of living my life. I am sick and tired of this governmental office or that regulatory agency dictating what they think is in my best interests. I spend half my income paying taxes so a bunch of politicians can tell me what they think is good for me and waste the vast majority of my money doing so. I do not want to pay more money to a union to tell me what is best for me. Let me just do it myself, thank you very much.

KEEP YOUR HANDS OUT OF MY WALLET!!!!
 
I find it humorous how often people bash unions with such a large swatter. Sure, there are faults in the union system. the worst is the protection of people who are abusing their employment. Gold brickers and slackers hide behind the union instead of bucking up and getting the job done that they are hired for.

A number of years ago my Dad made a big mistake at work. His union stuck up for him and got him back on track. Otherwise, he might have been without a job.

You can bet dollars to donuts that if there hadn't been a unionizing effort a century ago, most of us wouldn't even be doing treework. The unions have a pretty significant part in creating a middle class in America. How many of uscommercial arbos would be able to make a living if we only worked for upper class clients? I have a few, but not enough to keep me in beans and bread. Most of my clients are mid and upper mid incomes. Lots of blue collar.

If you look back to the roots of the union educational process you'll see the guilds. Sure, some of the guilds tryed to control their trade's education for their own. If you look around at some educational entities these days you would probably see the same practices.

Prejudices and biases against unions aren't much different than prejudices and biases against other groups of people, you fill in the blank.

See you in Montreal!
 
T165 said it. I was IBEW line clearance, and will never go back. Going union would dampen our industries creativity, pride in craftsmanship, and efficiency. Think of all the great climbers that would get kicked out of the union for using unapproved climbing gear/methods like the butterfly saddle.
 
Where the union might help the most, is for employers who are cant afford to give medical to their employees. It's very costly as some of you may know. The city pays out over $650.00 per month for my medical plan. Do you think an employer in the tree industry could do that ? And then add retirment on top of that and then all the other little perks.

It at least gives a person a choice . Although union dues can be pricy for differnt oganizations each one is usually cutailed to the oganization.My thought would be to fall under the embrella of an existing oganization, such as the operaters union. They have an a, b and c program with different fees and different benifit packages.

The end result would be that it would give tree workers a whole lot more then they have now. This is not for everyone and then again maybe you would have the choice of being union or none, who knows. Thats the way it was for me up untill last year.

Thanks
Greg
 
copied from Neal Boortz's website:
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. -- Robert Heinlein
 
Snarf,

In regards to the butterfly saddle and other gear being approved or not, I had a guy call me the other day about using ultra tech for split tails. He was looking for strength and electrical conductivity data as he works in the line clearance industry and was trying to convince his employer it was a safe rope. I told him if the ITCC approved it, it is definatly okay to use. BTW, the company he works for is IBEW unionized. So as for the union people taking the word of a 'hand', I dont think they would either. This guy was going to great lengths to prove it okay.

As for my opinion on the union, sometimes I have joked about it. Im not union. But having someone look out for me in the payscale would be nice. Private owners like to not hand out raises until you threaten to quit. Been there, seen that.
 
As an owner,operator,and employer I would have no quams to being union. As Tom D pointed out,unions have raised the standard of living for middle class America.

It would be great to have a graduated pay scale and good benifits for employees. Also it would be nice when extra help is required to just call the "Hall" a have them send some one out.

Realistically I don't think our industry as it stands right now could support union wages and benefits. To support uion wages and benefits it takes "Big Money" from large municipal contracts, up scale commercial, heavy industrial type clientele. The bulk of the tree care business is centered in the residential market, there just isn't enough "Dollars" floating around to support union wage and benefits

Even if we could miraculously make a tree workers union happen, the issue of enforcement in the market place, would have to be dealt with. Union vs non union tree companies competing for the same business in the residential sector, who do you think is going to win out in most cases. A non- union company has as much right to the market place as a union company unless the client requests union labor be used exclusively.

If it would be possible to get everybody in the arbor business into some type of union, it would dramatically level the playing field for those in the commercial end. Who knows it just might smooth out some insurace isses too.

These are just a few of my thoughts.

Ax-man
 
Brian,

I have no idea who Neil Boortz is but I read a lot of Heinlein in my youth. I think Heinlein is correct but that is an age old observation. That's part of the complexity of living in a social environment. Some people have to pay for things they don't want or need.

Why should I, a single, non-parent, be paying for the $400 bonus to parents? I don't get any [direct] benefit for the taxes that I'm assessed for the education system. Is that tyrannical? Sure, on the lower end of the scale. Society benefits from having an educated populace. Unfortunately, we can't really pick where our taxes are spent.

Union dues are to pay for a lot of things. OK, go ahead and tear me up about the skimming and racketeering garbage that goes on with some of the unions. That's on another end of the spectrum. I don't think that we're likely to see a unionizing movement in our society unless everything goes pear-shaped and we have chaos first.

Tom
 
Tom, our industry already has informal guilds, and you are a guildmaster. Why would you want to pay into a union only to have them dictate how you do things. I guarantee you are doing a better job now than you could as part of a union. If you don't believe me come on out and sign the books if you have a slow time. You'll need to be willing to start as a 1st or 2nd step apprentice and use company supplied gear. Your years of experience won't mean much to the guys you'll be working with. They'll do their best to get you straitened out. Hope you like arborplex, the blake hitch, and trimming in hooks.
 
The biggest problem with union thinking is that they have to bring everybody down to the lowest common denominator. Standards must be made low enough so that the least skilled person can be 'equal' to everyone else. Individualism is punished and banned.

The closest I came to a union type environment was when I worked for 2+ years for a local city. A mentally handicapped guy was hired 2 weeks after me and we both were payed the same.

After two years I was a certified arborist, was climbing and doing trimming/ removals from a bucket truck, etc. This guy was unable to gas a saw by himself and drove a water truck to water new trees because he wasn't qualified to do anything else.

When my second annual review came up, I was given a standard percentage raise. The boss said the city couldn't afford to pay me more with my low level of seniority. Two weeks later the dipwad got the exact same raise. Boss said it would be 'unfair' to deny him his raise. I quit the next day.
 
165,

I do agree with you on the pay scale. That can be very dissapointing to those who are much more capable, hard working, and who have put forth the time and effort to learn their trade , rather then just show up for the pay check.

On the other hand it could be set up to were there are steps involved and as they progress or pass certain requirements or test, then the raise would come into effect.

I'm the only arborist and tree worker on the city tree crew other than the Urban forester. Yet my so called superviser makes about $10,00 a yr more then me.He has never been in a bucket truck nor put on a saddle.No experience whats so ever, but hired as a supervisor to run the tree crew. Is that fair? maybe not, but thats the way things work.

It is (possible), that we as tree workers as a whole could change these typs of problems. There are many tree workers out there that would probably vote for being unionized, but it only works as a unit. It is also (possible) that we may have a hand in writting the laws and standards for this type of organization being that it is realativley new to the union. Only one way to find out and thats to ask. Which I'm slowly working on now.

This would not necessarily benifit me because because I already belong to a union within the city, but looking at all those in the industry who dont have benies and have families, I feel for some of them. Giving them the option may be a good thing or bad . I dont no. Only one way to find out .


Greg
 
Unions would only benefit the lowest common denominator. You claim unions would help all, but it is impossible. What incentive would the brightest and most qualified have? Without a union, the brightest and most qualified get the best paying jobs. With a union, there are rules in place saying that everyone 'deserves' the same shot. The best qualified no longer have an advantage. In a union setup, the dumbest and least motivated benefit the most.

So you suggest a union, then want to add yet more rules and qualifications to try and imitate what would happen in a free market environment? I don't think so. It cannot happen with so many dipping their paws into the pot and so few to actually keep the pot properly stirred. The corrupt will skim off all the good stuff, leaving the honest to support the stupid. It cannot work.
 
It seems that often times in tree work, climbers (and other workers, too) devote much of their life working for small companies that give little or (more likely) no benefits. Something I always think about is what's gonna happen when I can't climb anymore (that'll be 70 years from now, in case you were wondering). In that sense, I would not mind devoting a chunk of my hourly wage to go to retirement and other benefits (med, dental, etc). I had that when I worked at TCOT. Why did I leave there?

love
nick
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I would not mind devoting a chunk of my hourly wage to go to retirement and other benefits (med, dental, etc). I had that when I worked at TCOT. Why did I leave there?

[/ QUOTE ] So what is stopping you from doing that yourself? Lack of financial discipline and what else? You want to force a union on ME because you do not have the discipline to save for your own retirement?

Liberals piss me off to no end. Their solution to everything is to dig into MY pocket to pay for more programs to 'help the disadvantaged'. You know why the disadvantaged are that way? Most are too lazy to get off their butts and work like I do! So I'm supposed to pay to help them because I worked harder than they did? We already have tons of programs to help the truly needy and every one is corrupt to some degree or another. How will creating more liberal programs help and why will this new program (tree worker's union) be different from all the rest?
 
POSTED BY treeclimber165... "So what is stopping you from doing that yourself? Lack of financial discipline and what else?"

Financial discipline has nothing to do with it. If I saved 100% of all my money (after paying rent, utilities, etc) that still would not be enough to pay the occasional medical and dental bill. These are the types of benefits that I am missing out on when I work for someone just for an hourly wage, even if it is 25.00/hr or more.

"Most are too lazy to get off their butts and work like I do!"

Do you have some facts to back that claim up?

Maybe the best bet would be to make it an optional type of thing. If you aren't so concerned about your future or your own well-being...or if you're just super financially responsible, then you could keep doing what you're doing. If you're the type of person who likes "liberal programs " (as you put it) then you could sign up. Would that be reasonable?

love
nick
 
You can't lump everyone into this union thing. For some people a union suits them very well. For others it doesn't. It is a very personal decision.
 
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