proper cut for a piece that is tip-tied

[dspacio]

Lately I have found a number of situations where I tip-tied pieces to keep them from swinging outward (avoid tips hitting a house or powerlines).
I am relying on a well-sweat line but no advantage. Positive (or near horizontal) rigging.

Approaching the cut, I have been at a pause a lot of these times. I am not expecting the piece to pull up, where I would do a face cut toward the rigging point. Often what I am coming to is a tight face cut that will cause the hinge to snap as it falls toward it's gravity, then getting caught by the rigging after breaking free. I tend to cheat the hinge between direction of gravity, and direction of the rigging point.
Instructing the rope guy to let it fall away as gravity takes it, then hold to guide away from obstacle.

Do you all have other insights around making the cut when a piece is tip-tied?

The above discussion is mainly relating to limbs, though I have the same question regarding trunk wood. (for example a multi-stem pine where I hope to avoid one trunk slamming against the other leads, as it would if it were butt-tied). I used the same approach as above, letting it fall away even with a minor lean to work with. I am also considering snap cuts, full slice-through, etc.

I haven't run into any direct problems with my approach, but it feels clunky and leaves me seeking a more deliberate method.

 

[Stumpsprouts]

Lately I have found a number of situations where I tip-tied pieces to keep them from swinging outward (avoid tips hitting a house or powerlines).
I am relying on a well-sweat line but no advantage. Positive (or near horizontal) rigging.

Approaching the cut, I have been at a pause a lot of these times. I am not expecting the piece to pull up, where I would do a face cut toward the rigging point. Often what I am coming to is a tight face cut that will cause the hinge to snap as it falls toward it's gravity, then getting caught by the rigging after breaking free. I tend to cheat the hinge between direction of gravity, and direction of the rigging point.
Instructing the rope guy to let it fall away as gravity takes it, then hold to guide away from obstacle.

Do you all have other insights around making the cut when a piece is tip-tied?

The above discussion is mainly relating to limbs, though I have the same question regarding trunk wood. (for example a multi-stem pine where I hope to avoid one trunk slamming against the other leads, as it would if it were butt-tied). I used the same approach as above, letting it fall away even with a minor lean to work with. I am also considering snap cuts, full slice-through, etc.

I haven't run into any direct problems with my approach, but it feels clunky and leaves me seeking a more deliberate method.

Drop cut works great, if the rigging is going to route the piece away from you. This two minute video is gold.

 

[dspacio]

that's great, thanks for the video.
I remember reading in the style in "The Art .. of Rigging" .

Here he has the rigging point right above, where the line is going straight up. When I have been double considering the cut, is where I have the RP back toward the tree, away from the obstacle. It's gone well by letting it run, but I am engaging with what he mentioned there about the butt swinging back.

Could be that the type of cut isn't as crucial; and that the act of letting it run is the crucial event to how the piece successfully flies.
Tip-tie has been working great; I have been blessed to have some fine ropework from the ground lately.

 

[moss]

that's great, thanks for the video.
I remember reading in the style in "The Art .. of Rigging" .

Here he has the rigging point right above, where the line is going straight up. When I have been double considering the cut, is where I have the RP back toward the tree, away from the obstacle. It's gone well by letting it run, but I am engaging with what he mentioned there about the butt swinging back.

Could be that the type of cut isn't as crucial; and that the act of letting it run is the crucial event to how the piece successfully flies.
Tip-tie has been working great; I have been blessed to have some fine ropework from the ground lately.

I would say the rigging point location in relation to where the piece is tied is the most important variable, followed by the quality of the “Let it run!” rope work.

The more angle (off vertical) there is in the rigging set the more swing movement you’re going to get, look out! ;-)
-AJ

 

[moss]

Whenever I rig a tip-tied piece with questionable potential movement I try to keep the trunk between me and the swing zone.
-AJ

 

[evo]

Lately I have found a number of situations where I tip-tied pieces to keep them from swinging outward (avoid tips hitting a house or powerlines).
I am relying on a well-sweat line but no advantage. Positive (or near horizontal) rigging.

Approaching the cut, I have been at a pause a lot of these times. I am not expecting the piece to pull up, where I would do a face cut toward the rigging point. Often what I am coming to is a tight face cut that will cause the hinge to snap as it falls toward it's gravity, then getting caught by the rigging after breaking free. I tend to cheat the hinge between direction of gravity, and direction of the rigging point.
Instructing the rope guy to let it fall away as gravity takes it, then hold to guide away from obstacle.

Do you all have other insights around making the cut when a piece is tip-tied?

The above discussion is mainly relating to limbs, though I have the same question regarding trunk wood. (for example a multi-stem pine where I hope to avoid one trunk slamming against the other leads, as it would if it were butt-tied). I used the same approach as above, letting it fall away even with a minor lean to work with. I am also considering snap cuts, full slice-through, etc.

I haven't run into any direct problems with my approach, but it feels clunky and leaves me seeking a more deliberate method.

For stem wood I typically just cut straight through from behind the rigging point going towards the rigging point. Sometimes on a slight downward sloping angle and sometimes slightly off to the side or even 90 degrees to the rigging point (if making a face, this allows the weight to gradually load onto the rope).
I rarely if ever get the chance to tip tie a limb and face to lift the limb straight up.
But almost always use a MA

 

[Jehinten]

Lately I have found a number of situations where I tip-tied pieces to keep them from swinging outward (avoid tips hitting a house or powerlines).
I am relying on a well-sweat line but no advantage. Positive (or near horizontal) rigging.

Approaching the cut, I have been at a pause a lot of these times. I am not expecting the piece to pull up, where I would do a face cut toward the rigging point. Often what I am coming to is a tight face cut that will cause the hinge to snap as it falls toward it's gravity, then getting caught by the rigging after breaking free. I tend to cheat the hinge between direction of gravity, and direction of the rigging point.
Instructing the rope guy to let it fall away as gravity takes it, then hold to guide away from obstacle.

Do you all have other insights around making the cut when a piece is tip-tied?

In my opinion, you shouldn't go for a tip tie here so much as a near mid tie slightly towards the tips. Sweat the rope as tight as possible, then notch (angled as you described, slightly towards the rigging point and slowly make your back cut. Start your back cut parallel to your notch or even slightly away from the rigging point, watching the limb you'll see it settle into the rigging until it quits moving (rigging rope is now fully loaded) then rock the bar of the saw to cut towards the rigging point and finish the cut. You'll get a nice smooth horizontal swing preventing the tips from hitting any targets and the near mid tie instead of the tip tie will reduce shock load when the hinge breaks.

 

[dspacio]

The more angle (off vertical) there is in the rigging set the more swing movement you’re going to get, look out! ;-)
-AJ

absolutely, and I tend to use my lanyard in a position that helps me stay clear, if I need to shove off when things start swinging. I keep a "two-exits" mentality when I get that sense the butt may become unpredictable.

 

[dspacio]

For stem wood I typically just cut straight through from behind the rigging point going towards the rigging point. Sometimes on a slight downward sloping angle and sometimes slightly off to the side or even 90 degrees to the rigging point (if making a face, this allows the weight to gradually load onto the rope).
I rarely if ever get the chance to tip tie a limb and face to lift the limb straight up.
But almost always use a MA

good point about letting the piece settle into the rope a bit before sending it free, @Jehinten has the same idea too. I can see that all over, think I have achieved it sometimes following my sensible approach. cheating the forces to have the piece swing away from both obstacles and myself, with the help of whatever lean is existing.

when running a MA, does it obstruct at all during lowering operation? is this through pulley multiplying, or a device?

 

[Boomslang]

If there is any potential for an obstacle to be struck when tip tying, either through the swing or gravity, a second line should be used with a butt hitch. It helps to have a second groundsman to run the additional rope, but the climber can run it if needed. Remember control is the name of the game.

 

[dspacio]

In my opinion, you shouldn't go for a tip tie here so much as a near mid tie slightly towards the tips. Sweat the rope as tight as possible, then notch (angled as you described, slightly towards the rigging point and slowly make your back cut. Start your back cut parallel to your notch or even slightly away from the rigging point, watching the limb you'll see it settle into the rigging until it quits moving (rigging rope is now fully loaded) then rock the bar of the saw to cut towards the rigging point and finish the cut. You'll get a nice smooth horizontal swing preventing the tips from hitting any targets and the near mid tie instead of the tip tie will reduce shock load when the hinge breaks.

great description. this is what I have been aiming for. Those small details in the felling cut, to let gravity set in to the piece, before finally swinging it sideways and into the rigging. so that momentum is going parallel to the house, not away then back towards again.

I do often aim for the mid-point tie. In the job that really got me thinking, (big oak limbs over a house) I misjudged CoG on a pretty big piece (all log), that flipped on descent. I knew it was a wild one and had tied a nice strong marl that held, but it was surely a 'thank heavens' moment.

I have been doing a few obstacle jobs with guys on their first days running ropes, so it's been a lot of faith and description to orchestrate! Instinct is becoming a better guide all the time and these reflections of the technique help a lot too. Thanks ~

 

[dspacio]

If there is any potential for an obstacle to be struck when tip tying, either through the swing or gravity, a second line should be used with a butt hitch. It helps to have a second groundsman to run the additional rope, but the climber can run it too if needed. Remember control is the name of the game.

Thanks, this is something I havent brought in much yet (nearly always just have one ground helper) but it definitely sounds wise especially on these big pieces where there is a lot of momentum involved. Having it tied off with an amount of slack that would prevent it from swinging too far, may be a simple way to include this without extra help.

 

[evo]

good point about letting the piece settle into the rope a bit before sending it free, @Jehinten has the same idea too. I can see that all over, think I have achieved it sometimes following my sensible approach. cheating the forces to have the piece swing away from both obstacles and myself, with the help of whatever lean is existing.
o

Ma can be anything from just a getto 2:1 and porty to a grcs, or hobbs... It's up to the tools on hand, size of load, and skill of crew(and number). If having to do many on the same tree and there is enough rope, you can set up a double whip for a 2:1 and skip a porty or grcs (if the weight is right), you can skip the extra pulley and just use a biner in this application (my opinion), one person on the ground can only "lift" by heaving down their body weight, so with a double whip the biner at max can only see twice the load of the groundie. Tip tying (as long as not crashed and caught) is pretty damn static compared to negative rigging
@Boomslang said x2... This also can take a huge amount of the dynamic loading out of the picture and gain ample control. Pretty bomber from two different trees (if possible) so the load swings away from the climber (essentially two lowering lines where one just controls the swing away)

 

[evo]

Thanks, this is something I havent brought in much yet (nearly always just have one ground helper) but it definitely sounds wise especially on these big pieces where there is a lot of momentum involved. Having it tied off with an amount of slack that would prevent it from swinging too far, may be a simple way to include this without extra help.

Many times I will have a short chunk of rope in the tree, take a wrap or two around a stub and not even hold it or lock it off (on another stub with a belly of slack to let it run a hair). Basically "letting it burn"which does control swing, and some deceleration

 

[dmonn]

Control is definitely the name of the game. With more control you're less likely to need to have that awkward discussion with the homeowner about that new skylight you gave him.

Along those lines, has there been a thread here discussing the oopsies that have caused significant damage to targets and how they may have been avoided? Not the idiots with chainsaws variety, but accidents that happened to serious arbs with a detailed analysis.

 

[Stumpsprouts]

In my opinion, you shouldn't go for a tip tie here so much as a near mid tie slightly towards the tips. Sweat the rope as tight as possible, then notch (angled as you described, slightly towards the rigging point and slowly make your back cut. Start your back cut parallel to your notch or even slightly away from the rigging point, watching the limb you'll see it settle into the rigging until it quits moving (rigging rope is now fully loaded) then rock the bar of the saw to cut towards the rigging point and finish the cut. You'll get a nice smooth horizontal swing preventing the tips from hitting any targets and the near mid tie instead of the tip tie will reduce shock load when the hinge breaks.

Any chance you (or someone) could show a sketch of this? I think I picture it but I just want to make sure!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Moving from vertical to horizontal(increase sine) is increasing leveraged load during handling on hinge/rig vs. horizontal tipping down/or up(increase cos) is relief of same leveraged(sine) load as very separate functions or phases. Another separate stage from other aspect is separation of pre and post tearoff considerations. i always look at cos benchmark as to cause, 100% when aligned to cause as normal position/support.
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When y'all say some down , some over on hinge side ways into rig; i view that as letting load reach for/teasing it/load with where it wants to go(down) drawing it into my game to extrude/bargain some side motion out of the deal in trade. But then also using the downward motion to draw the rope tighter (if rigged cuz can affect some w/o rig), after sweat/swig as tight as possible.
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Climber 2xEffort + 1x Bodyweight unique preTension position
PreTighten rope hard to restrict movement against load as best can, placing hitchpoint leveraged distance out from hinge but before CoG. Climber is in key position to help preTighten as can access load leg to give equal opposite force of arm or leg effort w/o friction buffer. Then on control leg the initial effort + bodyWeight alone or in concert with ground control preTighten efforts. The climber can apply this raw equal opposite of effort at hitchpoint or even leveraged farther out on rigid load. Can also climb up and induce into rope stretch also sometimes. Capitalizing on either or both strategies( leverage lift on load vs. rope stretch). Then take to sweat/swig after linearly tight as can for more leveraged return from less rubbery/more rigid lever(s).
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Hitchpoint closer to CoG for more automatic preTightening and better balance and then more clearance after tearoff
With the length between hinge pivot and hitch point increased (but still short of CoG for predictable tipping down continuing after tearoff and not reversing to tips upwards) as a longer lever to induce rope even tighter as load tips down on hinge(but looser as hitchpoint tips towards support point) before tearoff. This gives less sudden impact of change at tearoff from hinge to rope support, as more of load already moved to rope already.
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BUT, that tighter rope from teasing downward can then also induce stronger side wards pull to induce stronger hinge across(hinge strength always induced by force across thinnes of hinge)as also draws load around on this stronger pivot , w/tighter rope, placed at much greater leveraged support on load. More smooth graceful, predictable, less loaded, less impacting, slow is steady >>steady is fast (turtle beats hare) movement.
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Sweat for remote Round Turn on overhead support for heavy loads
Another great sweat point is midway thru a Round Turn(RT) /single bottom arc on support grabbed with carabinier and leash. If need all that RT brake force this can really be great as also reduces support 2xLoad effect. If can take the heat/move slow, carabiner pull can be great magic to sweat/swig (while end of RT anchored)very tight, and aid in removal of RT also. So, can be installed and removed very remotely before climb. Can be awesome.
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Sweatpoint of Prusic between hitchpoint and support
Another great sweat point can be Prusic midway on load leg , that also can sweat/tag to rig as coming down and delivery, sometimes that alone makes trickiest part easy to immediately simplify clean movement.
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So I would rig/sweat tight employing climber, tip down some( knowing it can't, daring it to try) cutting to 10-2 line if can before slant to more across for back cut. Taperd hinge fatside up, drawing to about 45 degrees face slant. Have very tight rig that any drop on load turns around not as loss but frind to tighten rig more(either stays up or tightens rope win/win) , and far enough out for hitchpoint that tip down on hinge is real distance tightening. Load pull sideways force reveals to then force hinge stronger across to then carry less load ( as now more on rope) can be key. Then bargain with it knowing what it wants(down), how much clearance for that, to then extrude sideways etc. needed. Well placed rope points and using gravity as favorable power for rig, let rig be master not slave of gravity. Try to get hinge/rip pivot as just a strong butt tie that helps pivot hitchpoint to under support point, or rather just shy for safer light pull away from climber on tearoff. Then the butt tie(hinge/rip) is cut thru when very lightly loaded and load itself in correct position and mostly on rigging rope. Soft drift to upright as more balanced hitchpoint now pivot closer to CoG. Actually rigged a few tough ones with quick release, 2x just cut the butt tie to then find could use hinge/rip as same if command this modeling.
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No face cheat sometimes
Another refinement possibly if far enough from parent to not ripple fiber or outright removing tree; is noFace of cutting down to load force and across to steer as can. 45degrees of 70.7% pull up against load(cos) as also 70.7% across pull(sine) is fair neighborhood. This would be more to a horizontal scenario, tipping down, using the leveraged length between saw and CoG as like guys on ground pulling at angle on arm to allow some down and yet gain some spin around at same time. Handling lighter and longer with above rigging techniques. Rip like is art can look unPro in rush but be so 'sloppy good' they will call it (dumb)luck the 1st 3x or so... Labor Under Controlled Knowledge; yeah, L.U.C.K.!
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Sorry long again, but orchestration takes key component instruments played/balanced at high extremes to extrude sweetest music.
And I just luv this stuff.
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[Mark Chisholm]

Drop cut works great, if the rigging is going to route the piece away from you. This two minute video is gold.

This style of rigging is a bit risky to me, especially if this is a sizable branch or section. If the rope person doesn't do everything just right or you misjudge the balancing, the piece can come towards you as it flips even if the rigging is away from you. Not saying I don't use something like this, but it is not often and I am very particular.

 

[Jehinten]

Any chance you (or someone) could show a sketch of this? I think I picture it but I just want to make sure!

I wasn't sure how to show it in a sketch, so I made a quick video. I think this shows it pretty well, but feel free to ask if you still have questions.


And as @TheTreeSpyder mentioned, if your not worried about peels, then you don't even need to make a notch. Which will help it steer around even better.

 

[Stumpsprouts]

I wasn't sure how to show it in a sketch, so I made a quick video. I think this shows it pretty well, but feel free to ask if you still have questions.


And as @TheTreeSpyder mentioned, if your not worried about peels, then you don't even need to make a notch. Which will help it steer around even better.

I see it now! Thanks so much for taking the time to put that together.