Municipal VS Self Employment

[macrocarpa]

I started working with trees in 2001 and have gone from working for the biggest tree care company, to municipal service departments, to owning/operating a small tree care company. I have always come back to owning/operating a small tree care company for most of those years and have moved to different states in the process. I always thought a municipal position would be the best long-term career option but when attempted it seemed to become somewhat.......soul sucking. I know the muni positions all come down to how the program is organized and management & coworkers to make or break it. How many others have weighed these different options and what conclusions (if any) have you reached?

 

[Reach]

I am forever doomed to be an entrepreneur; I’ve been working for myself since I was 14, hired my first employee when I was 16/17. I’ve owned four different companies since, not all tree services, but all in the green industry. Personally I could not imagine life doing anything else, I feel like I was made to be an entrepreneur, and would be too unhappy and too difficult to work with to be an employee of any sort, municipal or otherwise.

 

[Jan_]

I am forever doomed to be an entrepreneur; I’ve been working for myself since I was 14, hired my first employee when I was 16/17. I’ve owned four different companies since, not all tree services, but all in the green industry. Personally I could not imagine life doing anything else, I feel like I was made to be an entrepreneur, and would be too unhappy and too difficult to work with to be an employee of any sort, municipal or otherwise.

Damn, I haven't gotten around to doing much in my 16 years of life, and you hired a employee at my age. Really makes me wonder what I could be doing if I tried.

 

[treecareinc]

I think that’s a very individual question. I had the opportunity to take the city arborist position where I live 20 years ago. I was 2 years into my own business. I had borrowed significant money for equipment and would’ve been upside down had I tried to liquidate. If that opportunity would’ve come a few years earlier I would’ve take it for sure.

A good friend of mine went to work for the same city when he was 18. The conditions for his retirement are very different today than they were when he was hired. I can’t exactly remember all the specifics, but the term he has to work was increased by nearly 10 years and the formula to determine his pension was altered to lower his payout. I also think he explained that he no longer gets free healthcare in retirement, but can’t remember the specifics?

I think the general consensus is that if you work for government you get a pension and lifetime health care. We are currently in the largest period of economic prosperity ever to occur in the United States. Yet here is the condition of public employee pension Funds on a state by state basis:

How Well-Funded are Pension Plans in Your State?

More than half of states have pension plans that are less than two-thirds funded, and five states have pension plans that are less than 50 percent funded.

taxfoundation.org

I also think the timing of where you're at in your career plays a major factor. In Ohio to get full retirement from OPERS I believe you need to work for government for 30 years (Non law enforcement). I also think you sacrifice your previous contributions to social security. If you enter public employment after about 35 it seems questionable to me?

I would be skeptical of a public pension based on the data available? I can’t see the goal posts not having to be moved further away in many states...

 

[RopeShield]

Just some thoughts and thinking out loud hate for you to waste another second trying to make the best decision.
Muni job is everyone is your boss. public, mayor, ccouncil, and management. union fellow employees.
self employed it is up to you and the client and managing employees and biz
The good bad and ugly of it is what is in your heart and what you can tolerate
For me it didn't matter when i was townee or biz owner. What mattered is doing the right thing and feeling good at the end of the day.
Much much easier to manage all things considered being self employeed.
Hard to be good at all things but true to what you enjoy. Managing relationships ie muni or managing clients self employeed.
In a muni job it is mostly head down and under the radar, no waves etc.
Self employed if you treat all like they are your neighbour, bad or good, you can just walk away, tell them what you think or just take their money.
No better feeling than interacting with a good and thankful client and getting paid good money.
In the end you can make more friends/neighbours being sef employed because of the ability to screen who you want to interact with.

Hope these thoughts help.

 

[Jonny]

Damn, I haven't gotten around to doing much in my 16 years of life, and you hired a employee at my age. Really makes me wonder what I could be doing if I tried.

At 16 years old and already got a few years rec climbing experience, you probably got a great head start if you’re planning to work in tree care. Around here, you might get some work splitting firewood or other shop work, but no tree service I’m familiar with is gonna hire under 18, I’m not sure even splitting wood was legal, and that company might find themselves in a heap of trouble if that kid lost a finger or something. Reach’s background is kinda exceptional, don’t take it to mean you’re behind the curve on anything. Quite the opposite probably. Starting a tree care service can’t be taken lightly. If that’s your goal, the best way you can prepare is by spending some time working for a reputable established business and learning all you can about the work as well as the business side of it. Don’t rush it, there’s always always always more to learn.

 

[macrocarpa]

I think that’s a very individual question. I had the opportunity to take the city arborist position where I live 20 years ago. I was 2 years into my own business. I had borrowed significant money for equipment and would’ve been upside down had I tried to liquidate. If that opportunity would’ve come a few years earlier I would’ve take it for sure.

A good friend of mine went to work for the same city when he was 18. The conditions for his retirement are very different today than they were when he was hired. I can’t exactly remember all the specifics, but the term he has to work was increased by nearly 10 years and the formula to determine his pension was altered to lower his payout. I also think he explained that he no longer gets free healthcare in retirement, but can’t remember the specifics?

I think the general consensus is that if you work for government you get a pension and lifetime health care. We are currently in the largest period of economic prosperity ever to occur in the United States. Yet here is the condition of public employee pension Funds on a state by state basis:

How Well-Funded are Pension Plans in Your State?

More than half of states have pension plans that are less than two-thirds funded, and five states have pension plans that are less than 50 percent funded.

taxfoundation.org

I also think the timing of where you're at in your career plays a major factor. In Ohio to get full retirement from OPERS I believe you need to work for government for 30 years (Non law enforcement). I also think you sacrifice your previous contributions to social security. If you enter public employment after about 35 it seems questionable to me?

I would be skeptical of a public pension based on the data available? I can’t see the goal posts not having to be moved further away in many states...

Appreciate your perspective!

 

[macrocarpa]

Just some thoughts and thinking out loud hate for you to waste another second trying to make the best decision.
Muni job is everyone is your boss. public, mayor, ccouncil, and management. union fellow employees.
self employed it is up to you and the client and managing employees and biz
The good bad and ugly of it is what is in your heart and what you can tolerate
For me it didn't matter when i was townee or biz owner. What mattered is doing the right thing and feeling good at the end of the day.
Much much easier to manage all things considered being self employeed.
Hard to be good at all things but true to what you enjoy. Managing relationships ie muni or managing clients self employeed.
In a muni job it is mostly head down and under the radar, no waves etc.
Self employed if you treat all like they are your neighbour, bad or good, you can just walk away, tell them what you think or just take their money.
No better feeling than interacting with a good and thankful client and getting paid good money.
In the end you can make more friends/neighbours being sef employed because of the ability to screen who you want to interact with.

Hope these thoughts help.

I agree, end of the day satisfaction is huge and having appreciative clients that you walk away knowing you did the best you can for the care of their trees is a good feeling! Many people say "its called work your not supposed to enjoy it" but I think that's a sad way to be.

 

[evo]

Damn, I haven't gotten around to doing much in my 16 years of life, and you hired a employee at my age. Really makes me wonder what I could be doing if I tried.

Youre ripe to go as far as you wish. Youre at the age where you have little responsibility (mortgage, family, etc). The harder and further you go now will make it easier later on in your life. Stay motivated and take the bull by the horns and you can do more than most by the time you're 30. Trust me, it feels like a long way off, but you're half way there already.

 

[RopeShield]

Work is a moral and ethical good. I can be happy scrubbing toilets but much happier serving trees.
Too many widows out there cause of early retirement.
i don't think about retiring, I think about how can I keep taking care of trees and lately more about planting, seed collection and propogation the latter two being my roots and climbing and touching trees being my childhood. Thanks for starting the thread @macrocarpa just what i needed today

 

[macrocarpa]

Work is a moral and ethical good. I can be happy scrubbing toilets but much happier serving trees.
Too many widows out there cause of early retirement.
i don't think about retiring, I think about how can I keep taking care of trees and lately more about planting, seed collection and propogation the latter two being my roots and climbing and touching trees being my childhood. Thanks for starting the thread @macrocarpa just what i needed today

I too am transitioning. Thinking about how I can morph into more planting & preservation. I've been trying to be of influence locally to promote planting the right trees & preserving existing forests as my small community is developing rapidly. I think there is a lot of room for growth as arborists that may not pay big $, but seems to have a strong pull on me.

 

[Reach]

At 16 years old and already got a few years rec climbing experience, you probably got a great head start if you’re planning to work in tree care. Around here, you might get some work splitting firewood or other shop work, but no tree service I’m familiar with is gonna hire under 18, I’m not sure even splitting wood was legal, and that company might find themselves in a heap of trouble if that kid lost a finger or something. Reach’s background is kinda exceptional, don’t take it to mean you’re behind the curve on anything. Quite the opposite probably. Starting a tree care service can’t be taken lightly. If that’s your goal, the best way you can prepare is by spending some time working for a reputable established business and learning all you can about the work as well as the business side of it. Don’t rush it, there’s always always always more to learn.

Please don’t take me as too much of an example, my background is quite exceptional and rather odd in some ways. I should have clarified some points further too, I didn’t start production tree work until I was 18, I started my first lawn care company when I was 14.

 

[Jan_]

I'm not planing to start a company any time soon, I dont even know if I will do something with trees as my main job. I kinda want to do some rec climbing courses, something where I can climb and make a bit of money off of it. Studying arboriculture would also be something I'm interested in, but theres only one university that does that and it's far away from my home.

I just think it's amazing what others of my age do, and I sometimes feel like I'm waisting my life a bit when I dont do something in the afternoons, or when I sit in school all day, just waiting for it to end, only to come home in the dark, without anything to do except to be on the internet and, in a way, waste my time.

I'd like to do something practical, become an arborist, whatever, but then again, do I take all that risk or do I go study a safe job with almost guaranteed good money and job security? It's a hard choice.

 

[Serf Life]

I'm not planing to start a company any time soon, I dont even know if I will do something with trees as my main job. I kinda want to do some rec climbing courses, something where I can climb and make a bit of money off of it. Studying arboriculture would also be something I'm interested in, but theres only one university that does that and it's far away from my home.

I just think it's amazing what others of my age do, and I sometimes feel like I'm waisting my life a bit when I dont do something in the afternoons, or when I sit in school all day, just waiting for it to end, only to come home in the dark, without anything to do except to be on the internet and, in a way, waste my time.

I'd like to do something practical, become an arborist, whatever, but then again, do I take all that risk or do I go study a safe job with almost guaranteed good money and job security? It's a hard choice.

There are many others your age doing way less too bud. Less physical activity, researching, networking, and general self-improvement. Be kind to yourself, and enjoy the freedom of youth.

 

[Jonny]

Lol, chin up Jan! My son will be 18 next month and it’s all we can do to make sure he doesn’t flunk high school or make me a grandpa before I’m 40.
If you did the math you probably realize I already set a terrible example for him.

 

[ATH]

I got a State job right after college (as a Forester). It was a god gig...not much "hard" (physically straining) work. 8-5. End of day is the end of it. Good vacation policy. Pay wasn't great, but enough. I was able to take 6 weeks off (paid) when the kids were born.

But "soul sucking" is a fair description. It wasn't bad...nothing inherently there to suck the soul - I just didn't feel like I was moving forward. I was also spending too much time in the office. Spent too much time recommending folks do things that didn't get done. Not much opportunity to pick up a saw and do it myself. I would come home at the end of the days exhausted. etc...

I started my own company and overlapped time dong arborist work for a few years. Got too busy to keep doing both so I left the State and haven't looked back. The work I am doing now is much more physical, but I have much more energy when I get home. I don't think the difference is as much of a physical fitness thing as it is mental and emotional.

Sure - there are days when I wish I could punch out at 5:00 on a Friday, turn in a week's vacation and not think about anything work-related for 10 days. Instead, I was out in the garage tonight (Sunday) tuning up a saw after putting the kids so I can hit the ground running at 7:00 tomorrow morning. But I wouldn't trade where I am now to go back to where I was if I could.

Almost everybody asked me "what about health insurance?" or "why are you are giving up the pension?". My answers: If I can figure out the salary thing, I can earn enough to make up for those. See the link posted by @treecareinc . We hit another recession and those pensions are going to start filing for bankruptcy protection. They already moved the age limit (I was hired at age 25 with the understanding I could retire at 30 years...they changed that to 30 years AND age 57 meaning I would need 32 years. I'm betting that will change again. They also dropped health care for spouses. So, I'm not so sure leaving the pension was such a big deal in the long-term.

Add to that, the more I think about it, like @RopeShield said, the less I think about actually retiring. Not that I am anywhere near it (44 years old...) - but I'm not sure the picture of American retirement fits me too well. Recently motivated/inspired by a book I just went through called Every Good Endeavor which helped give even more meaning/purpose to the work I do making retirement sound less inspiring.

Not that public employment is bad...there is a LOT of good to be done there. It was just not for me. About the same time I left public employment @JD3000 left the private sector for public employment and it seems like he is continuing to thrive there...but he has more leadership/influence than I had (and there was nowhere within the organization I worked for that I wanted to move up to!). Would be interested to hear his thoughts on this matter too. There are a couple of other municipal arborists I know to do a great job where they are and have significant impact on their communities, so I'd think their roles are less "soul sucking" than where I was?

 

[Jan_]

You guys are probably right, I'm doing way more than some others my age. I'm in a time of my life where I can afford to do nothing, I guess. Still feels wrong though

 

[macrocarpa]

I got a State job right after college (as a Forester). It was a god gig...not much "hard" (physically straining) work. 8-5. End of day is the end of it. Good vacation policy. Pay wasn't great, but enough. I was able to take 6 weeks off (paid) when the kids were born.

But "soul sucking" is a fair description. It wasn't bad...nothing inherently there to suck the soul - I just didn't feel like I was moving forward. I was also spending too much time in the office. Spent too much time recommending folks do things that didn't get done. Not much opportunity to pick up a saw and do it myself. I would come home at the end of the days exhausted. etc...

I started my own company and overlapped time dong arborist work for a few years. Got too busy to keep doing both so I left the State and haven't looked back. The work I am doing now is much more physical, but I have much more energy when I get home. I don't think the difference is as much of a physical fitness thing as it is mental and emotional.

Sure - there are days when I wish I could punch out at 5:00 on a Friday, turn in a week's vacation and not think about anything work-related for 10 days. Instead, I was out in the garage tonight (Sunday) tuning up a saw after putting the kids so I can hit the ground running at 7:00 tomorrow morning. But I wouldn't trade where I am now to go back to where I was if I could.

Almost everybody asked me "what about health insurance?" or "why are you are giving up the pension?". My answers: If I can figure out the salary thing, I can earn enough to make up for those. See the link posted by @treecareinc . We hit another recession and those pensions are going to start filing for bankruptcy protection. They already moved the age limit (I was hired at age 25 with the understanding I could retire at 30 years...they changed that to 30 years AND age 57 meaning I would need 32 years. I'm betting that will change again. They also dropped health care for spouses. So, I'm not so sure leaving the pension was such a big deal in the long-term.

Add to that, the more I think about it, like @RopeShield said, the less I think about actually retiring. Not that I am anywhere near it (44 years old...) - but I'm not sure the picture of American retirement fits me too well. Recently motivated/inspired by a book I just went through called Every Good Endeavor which helped give even more meaning/purpose to the work I do making retirement sound less inspiring.

Not that public employment is bad...there is a LOT of good to be done there. It was just not for me. About the same time I left public employment @JD3000 left the private sector for public employment and it seems like he is continuing to thrive there...but he has more leadership/influence than I had (and there was nowhere within the organization I worked for that I wanted to move up to!). Would be interested to hear his thoughts on this matter too. There are a couple of other municipal arborists I know to do a great job where they are and have significant impact on their communities, so I'd think their roles are less "soul sucking" than where I was?

Thanks ATH! I can relate to this a lot. The last muni position I had was as the city arborist as well as manage the stormwater program, but it was a challenge to complete the most simple accomplishments and I came home exhausted after being in an office all day. Its the security and benefits that I weigh and the potential to be meaningful if the muni program is lead properly, with the freedom and more daily rewarding aspects of being a small business owner. I am 40 and do all the work myself (with a groundie when climbing) and wonder about where to take it in the future.

 

[skew]

Great thread! After 28 years of self employment I am having these thoughts that maybe a muni job would be a good way to segway into retirement. The only money I have socked away is in equity. I used to own some rental property with my ex but it got liquidated when we split. I took the bulk of that money and paid off all major debt.
Fast forward to me starting a family at the ripe age of 49 and 359 days- I worry about money a lot more now than I used to . I have thrown a few resumes out there just to see if there is any interest but I feel like municipalities don't wan't someone who has been in the private sector. Also for me one of the huge benefits of self employment has been my time. I can't imagine having to show up to the same place at the same time every day. With having small children also I can't imagine how you do all that comes along with that and still show to work.
Also I found that the salaries offered at these jobs as barely a living wage.

 

[macrocarpa]

Great thread! After 28 years of self employment I am having these thoughts that maybe a muni job would be a good way to segway into retirement. The only money I have socked away is in equity. I used to own some rental property with my ex but it got liquidated when we split. I took the bulk of that money and paid off all major debt.
Fast forward to me starting a family at the ripe age of 49 and 359 days- I worry about money a lot more now than I used to . I have thrown a few resumes out there just to see if there is any interest but I feel like municipalities don't wan't someone who has been in the private sector. Also for me one of the huge benefits of self employment has been my time. I can't imagine having to show up to the same place at the same time every day. With having small children also I can't imagine how you do all that comes along with that and still show to work.
Also I found that the salaries offered at these jobs as barely a living wage.

Having flexible time when kids are young is a big benefit!