How to bid?

twig

twig

I got a call the other day about a local town wanting to hire a arborist to do all the towns tree work. The way they wanted me to bid it was a bit confusing. They wanted me to bid on average what it would cost to cut per tree in there town. I told them it would be hard to bid that way because of all the difference scenario's you encounter with tree work. In others words, let say I said $1000 per tree for removal and $250 to prune no matter what the scenario. I would be bound to do all the work at that cost because you would sign a contract. I tried to explain how they would be over paying on some jobs and under paying on other jobs. They said you have to take the good with the bad. I declined to take the job, as I would feel more comfortable seeing the scope of work to be performed and pricing it according to that scope of work. I drove through the town and inspected some of the trees. Most are in very bad shape, years of topping. Really old wires with no insulation on them any longer. Some trees may require a crane to remove them. Plus you are always on a roadway so you would need traffic control. I kinda felt like they were trying to get someone to do there work for nothing. What's your thoughts?
 
Consider learning more about their motivation. Ask them which trees in particular are most important to them. Consider bidding a sample of the population to give them an idea.

You're right; the only fixed-price deal in tree work that I can think of is Time & Materials.
 
We get that kind of call ups sometimes, usually with a range of DBH. So let's say they'll ask for prices on a removal for 1" to 12" , 13" to 24", 25" to 36" and 36" +.

If you drove through town, find the worse case scenario and bid that amount. Make sure you don't lose money !
 
Municipalities are weird when it comes to bidding. I've gotten our city contract the last two years and it's based primarily off an hourly rate. Last year I was a one man show with just a dump truck so of course I was the lowest bidder. It worked out quite well for both of us but a fixed rate like you're talking about? I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Way to much potential to get screwed over.
 
Day rate. What does it cost you to run your crew for one day. Truck, chipper, bucket truck, small skid steer machine maybe, and three guys. If you have a log truck add that in. I would suggest it to them this way.

This is my day rate price. This price includes a chip truck, chipper, bucket truck, and a mini loader. Crew is equipped with a certified arborist and two equipment operators( or groundsman, however you want to word it) The rate is for 8 hours of work including travel time to and from the job. $2880.00 a day, or whatever your rate is

This way, if the job is a massive tree and it takes you two days to rig it down, then you just made 5700 dollars or whatever. If its a bunch of easy pruning and you get 60 trees done in one day, then great. They got a lot of work done, and you made the money you needed to. I would never do it based on an average of trees in town. Like you mentioned, you never know what you could get into. Also, around here if you work for the city or town they usually pick all the wood up with a bucket loader and bump truck. Gives the town guys something to do to keep busy!!

Just my two cents.
 
twig said:
I got a call the other day about a local town wanting to hire a arborist to do all the towns tree work. The way they wanted me to bid it was a bit confusing. They wanted me to bid on average what it would cost to cut per tree in there town. I told them it would be hard to bid that way because of all the difference scenario's you encounter with tree work. In others words, let say I said $1000 per tree for removal and $250 to prune no matter what the scenario. I would be bound to do all the work at that cost because you would sign a contract. I tried to explain how they would be over paying on some jobs and under paying on other jobs. They said you have to take the good with the bad. I declined to take the job, as I would feel more comfortable seeing the scope of work to be performed and pricing it according to that scope of work. I drove through the town and inspected some of the trees. Most are in very bad shape, years of topping. Really old wires with no insulation on them any longer. Some trees may require a crane to remove them. Plus you are always on a roadway so you would need traffic control. I kinda felt like they were trying to get someone to do there work for nothing. What's your thoughts?
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Yeah I was gonna say throw them a day rate your comfortable with or very happy with and throw it at them . Either they will like it or not . I know from experience municipalities can be penny wise and dollar dumb, so good luck. Depending on your work situation it can pay some bills if other work is slow.
Oh and they can be slow payers as well. Depends when where and how really I guess.
 
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Thanks for the input. They seem pretty fixed on the way they want it priced. I tried the day rate with them. They didn't want to do it like that. I tried to recommend removal and proper planting. They said some trees they want to keep even though the tree is dangerous and declining. They are not looking to plant new trees. I tried to warn them of the risk they are taking leaving rotted trees above walkways and public areas and the potential for a lawsuit when it fails and hurts someone. Lots of sycamore trees all mutilated. Rotted branches sticking out everywhere. All above sidewalks, fences, and houses. I hate to turn away work, but I think sometimes it is best to do, especially when a contract is involved. Not only that, I am lucky enough to have clients that are willing to pay me my prices. It took years to get to this point for it to be that way, but I am fortunate enough to always be busy. Thanks for your insight. Cheers!
 
Say you bid a grand per tree. Whose to say they don't have you do all the $2k trees then cut you loose? Write up a bid for your day rate with or without them cleaning up. Send a copy to the UFB chair and diplomatically state your case. If someone drastically underbids...more likely to cut corners...more likely to have accidents ..to make the job come out. I wouldn't skip bidding somehow. These guys talk to each other in different towns. I just did a fat township job and now we are in. They often have max. thresholds, they then have to put out to bid. But if they like you...they can break the big job into smaller parts to avert that mandate and give you the job.
 
Was thinking the same thing....average price for average tree...yeah okay, sounds good.... we're gonna start from the biggest and work down this year...doh!
 
It amazes me how many ways we can think of to get screwed. Has anyone thought that they are feeling the same way? The nature of bid tenders is that once it's at that point they have established the requirements. You either fit them or you'l have to describe what your alternative is and then explain it's advantage and benefit. This is a pretty good way to lose the bid if its at all competitive.

Since they've already established how the pricing is going to work then you need to figure out how you can come up with an average price/tree that they will pay regardless of size, difficulty, etc… From their perspective they can come up with a budget for the year and know how many trees are going to come down plus what they may have to allow for in the event that there are more trees. It's an average price of their trees so figure out how many trees they're considering having removed and how many will be pruned at this point. Then take a look and come up with a total cost for each and calculate the average cost. Check the bid to see what other details are needed. Do they allow for a maximum size? What about emergency work? How will the scheduling of the work be handled? Will you be the one to establish which trees will be worked on? Will they cover the cost of traffic control where an officer is needed? So forth and so on….

The secret to tenders is to be the one who helps them establish the parameters of the RFQ or RFP. Then you can take the time to understand better their motivations and what concerns they may have. You'll be better able to discuss the pros and cons of different approaches to the various pricing strategies. Trying to do that after the fact will only lead to dead ends and frustration most often.

You may be able to establish limiting conditions in the proposal to cover some of the concerns you may have. But it is an opportunity to establish yourself with the town and could be an entree into other municipal work.

More importantly, does this pursuing this fit with your business model and plan?
 
What about charging per inch? Would they agree to this? Then, if they want to know what the tree care will cost for the year, all they need to do is measure the diameter of the trees to be removed, or pruned.
Something along the lines of 28.23 per inch of diameter for removals and 18.23 for pruning. Sure, some small removals will be cheap, but they will be quick. Maybe you can even fell most of them. A large removal may be 24" diameter and that would cost $677.52. Sure some will be easy removals and some will be harder, but over the course of a year, I bet it would average out.

That is the way it is run in a town over from me. They pick the price, you either go along, or you don't get the bid. Emergency work is billed per hour
 
"some trees they want to keep even though the tree is dangerous and declining. They are not looking to plant new trees. I tried to warn them of the risk they are taking leaving rotted trees above walkways and public areas and the potential for a lawsuit when it fails and hurts someone. Lots of sycamore trees all mutilated. Rotted branches sticking out everywhere. All above sidewalks, fences, and houses."

Maybe a more fundamental problem is that they see trees as assets, where you see 'rotted' liabilities. What seems like an honest opinion to you might sound like scare tactics to the city. You might reconsider the nature of decay, and what a 'defect' truly is. This is not easy, when ISA's definition is incoherent. This favors the smoke-and-mirrors approach to marketing--and we wonder why tree guys are distrusted?
 
We bid on lots of city work and it's always broke down by dbh. It sounds like they've gotten away with one price so far, but I guarantee you there aren't going to give you a bunch of pear tree or Apple tree removals at $1000 each. Likely they are trying to continue this method because it works in their favor.
 
guymayor said:
"some trees they want to keep even though the tree is dangerous and declining. They are not looking to plant new trees. I tried to warn them of the risk they are taking leaving rotted trees above walkways and public areas and the potential for a lawsuit when it fails and hurts someone. Lots of sycamore trees all mutilated. Rotted branches sticking out everywhere. All above sidewalks, fences, and houses."

Maybe a more fundamental problem is that they see trees as assets, where you see 'rotted' liabilities. What seems like an honest opinion to you might sound like scare tactics to the city. You might reconsider the nature of decay, and what a 'defect' truly is. This is not easy, when ISA's definition is incoherent. This favors the smoke-and-mirrors approach to marketing--and we wonder why tree guys are distrusted?
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Plain and simple fact...some trees need to removed. Your perpetual condescending opinions in regards to high risk trees being mostly overstated by others wouldn't play well were you to run a real tree service. He stated earlier that these trees had been topped and disfigured. If it was quite a time ago that ALWAYS leads to decay and with time and these trees being ROW trees apparently there are high level targets, some will need aggressive forms of mitigation. Heavily decayed trees in stress locations with targets of significance are a liability and not an asset.
 
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guymayor said:
"some trees they want to keep even though the tree is dangerous and declining. They are not looking to plant new trees. I tried to warn them of the risk they are taking leaving rotted trees above walkways and public areas and the potential for a lawsuit when it fails and hurts someone. Lots of sycamore trees all mutilated. Rotted branches sticking out everywhere. All above sidewalks, fences, and houses."

Maybe a more fundamental problem is that they see trees as assets, where you see 'rotted' liabilities. What seems like an honest opinion to you might sound like scare tactics to the city. You might reconsider the nature of decay, and what a 'defect' truly is. This is not easy, when ISA's definition is incoherent. This favors the smoke-and-mirrors approach to marketing--and we wonder why tree guys are distrusted?
Click to expand...
I'm sure some can pick out that your trying to convey being scrupulous as to what mitigation process should be chosen based on facts of tree s biology before conclusion s can be formed. You have a hell of a way of saying it!
 
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