Crane Company Issues - Advice

[CRTCNH]

Hey everyone,

This isn't a rant, and I'm the last person to "air out my bullshit". This post is specifically because I'm looking for advice...

Me: 6 year company (owner/operator), small crew of very talented individuals. Combined experience over 35 years. Our niche is complex rigging/removals, pruning, and very very large crane work (think 165ton+).

Them: Local crane company. 20 years in business. They have a variety of clients - everyone from large gov contracts to local small tree co's.

Relationship: We've worked together a little over 5 years. We've always had a very decent relationship. I've trained out 3 of their operators for trees. When called for tree services, they would always recommend our company first. We've always worked with each other if problems/issues arrive (scheduling conflicts, repairs, etc)

Issue: 18 hours before our scheduled job (scheduled a month ago), manager calls me explaining they can't provide us with the crane (100ton), and can give me their 165t for a substantial discount for the inconvenience. (No problem I thought). Fast forward - 8am, job site, still no crane. Call them and speak to secretary who explains the cranes upper fuel cell is Gel'ed up, and they're bringing it inside to get it warmed up. (We're in a cold snap up here in New England). I say "Okay let me know what the plan is when you know". Call back at 9:30, still no luck, and explain to them that even if they left now, we wouldn't have time to get the job done... I ask to be transferred over to their CEO, (again, always had a good relationship with), and proceed to explain the situation. They go on to tell me "Well this weather is an "Act of God", we service all our equipment with the best fuel, additive, and everything is stored indoors. It's not our fault you mobilized a crew/equipment, and cover those costs."

(Just so we're clear, we have a 30 year old chipper that lives outside, and fires right up every morning. The crane co has seven other cranes which were all out working on that same day. On my way home I passed 3 other tree co's running cranes.)

Today: Not only will the manager not respond to me, the owner of the company will/has not either.

Additionally, we were not working for one residence, but a Cooperative Park, thus I needed to explain to the board what the issue is. Which is a hit to my reputation. Further, (and this is what really bugs me) some of the homes we were slated to work around put their dogs in daycare (worried about the loud noise etc)... The reality is, that daycare cost for some of these people, could have been a night or two's worth of dinner, clothes for their kids, etc.. It's all too often the ones with less pay the most, and I'll be writing them checks to reimburse them for their costs.

Spoken with lawyers, and all have told me "tough shit" essentially. What I would try to recoup in wages/pay/equip cost would be spent in time or money taking it to small claims...

It's winter, this is our cold season, work is pretty light these days...What I just lost would have fed my family for about a month.

I'm typically a "Attract more bees with honey than vinegar" type of person, but this one really makes my blood boil.

Any and all thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

 

[Boomslang]

1. Cut your losses. Whatever costs you've incurred so far are gone. Don't get caught up in a sunk cost fallacy.

2. Cut ties with the crane co. The initial delay is one thing, the subsequent treatment is another. There are likely other companies you can start a relationship with.

3. Move on. You took a hit, but you'll bounce back. You've already done what you can to make it right with the clients. Reschedule the job and get it done.

 

[flushcut]

Shit happens move on. IMO you can either sit there and dwell on it or figure out a way to make it right with the custy and get the job done.

 

[Keeth]

Today: Not only will the manager not respond to me, the owner of the company will/has not either

Any and all thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

I'm in another camp. Since you have years of relationship, I would leave a message saying “How can we work this out?”

If cooler heads prevail, you might be able to salvage a relationship, and get the work arranged in an win-win manner. If you get ghosted after that, no choice but to walk.

Hope that helps.

 

[CRTCNH]

Thanks very much for the responses!

Customer and I have a great relationship through years of working together, and thankfully they’re very understanding.

Finally talked to the (new owner - last three months), his words were "do you think we give a shit about small guys like you? We have multi million dollar contracts that take priority."

We'll eat it, the fuck else can we do, call it a lessoned learned the worst way.

Word to any and all tree companies out there that sub out their crane service or any service - Have a contract prior to work being started - for any and all subcontractors. After 6 years, this is a brutally profound learning experience for myself.

This is the shit that kills a super supportive industry.

Already hired another crane co that better fits our needs.

Lets do better!

 

[Keeth]

Sorry to hear that!

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do!

 

[Al_trees]

Hey everyone,

This isn't a rant, and I'm the last person to "air out my bullshit". This post is specifically because I'm looking for advice...

Me: 6 year company (owner/operator), small crew of very talented individuals. Combined experience over 35 years. Our niche is complex rigging/removals, pruning, and very very large crane work (think 165ton+).

Them: Local crane company. 20 years in business. They have a variety of clients - everyone from large gov contracts to local small tree co's.

Relationship: We've worked together a little over 5 years. We've always had a very decent relationship. I've trained out 3 of their operators for trees. When called for tree services, they would always recommend our company first. We've always worked with each other if problems/issues arrive (scheduling conflicts, repairs, etc)

Issue: 18 hours before our scheduled job (scheduled a month ago), manager calls me explaining they can't provide us with the crane (100ton), and can give me their 165t for a substantial discount for the inconvenience. (No problem I thought). Fast forward - 8am, job site, still no crane. Call them and speak to secretary who explains the cranes upper fuel cell is Gel'ed up, and they're bringing it inside to get it warmed up. (We're in a cold snap up here in New England). I say "Okay let me know what the plan is when you know". Call back at 9:30, still no luck, and explain to them that even if they left now, we wouldn't have time to get the job done... I ask to be transferred over to their CEO, (again, always had a good relationship with), and proceed to explain the situation. They go on to tell me "Well this weather is an "Act of God", we service all our equipment with the best fuel, additive, and everything is stored indoors. It's not our fault you mobilized a crew/equipment, and cover those costs."

(Just so we're clear, we have a 30 year old chipper that lives outside, and fires right up every morning. The crane co has seven other cranes which were all out working on that same day. On my way home I passed 3 other tree co's running cranes.)

Today: Not only will the manager not respond to me, the owner of the company will/has not either.

Additionally, we were not working for one residence, but a Cooperative Park, thus I needed to explain to the board what the issue is. Which is a hit to my reputation. Further, (and this is what really bugs me) some of the homes we were slated to work around put their dogs in daycare (worried about the loud noise etc)... The reality is, that daycare cost for some of these people, could have been a night or two's worth of dinner, clothes for their kids, etc.. It's all too often the ones with less pay the most, and I'll be writing them checks to reimburse them for their costs.

Spoken with lawyers, and all have told me "tough shit" essentially. What I would try to recoup in wages/pay/equip cost would be spent in time or money taking it to small claims...

It's winter, this is our cold season, work is pretty light these days...What I just lost would have fed my family for about a month.

I'm typically a "Attract more bees with honey than vinegar" type of person, but this one really makes my blood boil.

Any and all thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

You didn't lose anything unless you try to get all legal on people. As soon as I read the crane company said it was an act of god and weren't responsible for mobilizing your equipment I suspected you were being unreasonable. They can't be expected to cover your costs.

You will lose a good relationship with the crane company and you will lose a good relationship with this association or co op. I would absolutely not ever reimburse someone for daycare cost for their pet. That is on them and was not a requirement of you doing the job. They chose to so that. Do this and they will take advantage of you going forward until the cows come home.

It also doesn't matter how many other cranes you saw out that day. Honestly that sounds rather unrealistic unless you live in the most small town surrounded by an absolute forest and everyone is doing crane work on the same day.

It is cold outside, the whole situation sucks. But you will make it worse by over apologizing and reimbursing people and ruining your relationship with the crane company.

Also I hate to break it to you but if you are using a 100 ton crane on the regular and say that you only do really big removals then you are likely charging way too much for a job. Do you have coastal redwoods in new england? I haven't seen anything anyways. Off the top of my head our contractors crane is a forty something ton. We have taken down trees 7 feet in diameter with it. If you can even believe it.

Smaller cranes get into places easier and don't crush driveways as easily. Now if you need the extra reach and can't take smaller picks then sometimes you need something bigger.

 

[Al_trees]

You didn't lose anything unless you try to get all legal on people. As soon as I read the crane company said it was an act of god and weren't responsible for mobilizing your equipment I suspected you were being unreasonable. They can't be expected to cover your costs.

You will lose a good relationship with the crane company and you will lose a good relationship with this association or co op. I would absolutely not ever reimburse someone for daycare cost for their pet. That is on them and was not a requirement of you doing the job. They chose to so that. Do this and they will take advantage of you going forward until the cows come home.

It also doesn't matter how many other cranes you saw out that day. Honestly that sounds rather unrealistic unless you live in the most small town surrounded by an absolute forest and everyone is doing crane work on the same day.

It is cold outside, the whole situation sucks. But you will make it worse by over apologizing and reimbursing people and ruining your relationship with the crane company.

Also I hate to break it to you but if you are using a 100 ton crane on the regular and say that you only do really big removals then you are likely charging way too much for a job. Do you have coastal redwoods in new england? I haven't seen anything anyways. Off the top of my head our contractors crane is a forty something ton. We have taken down trees 7 feet in diameter with it. If you can even believe it.

Smaller cranes get into places easier and don't crush driveways as easily. Now if you need the extra reach and can't take smaller picks then sometimes you need something bigger.

Okay I read your bottom post, should have before commenting. Yeah that is the best way to go about it. Also the owner of that crane company sounds like a told ass. Screw him. You need a small local guy. When our guy as gotten held up or broke down and really late he hasn't even charged us or given a huge discount.

 

[CRTCNH]

Okay I read your bottom post, should have before commenting. Yeah that is the best way to go about it. Also the owner of that crane company sounds like a told ass. Screw him. You need a small local guy. When our guy as gotten held up or broke down and really late he hasn't even charged us or given a huge discount.

To each their own on how things get handled. For me going an extra step here, making some extra effort there, never hurt. However I’m also fortunate to have zero problem telling someone to f**k off.

As far as trees go - yeah typically on any given weekday there is 5-8 tree co’s working within a 30mi radius. About 30% of them running crane “usually”… you hit the nail on the head - rural, heavily forested area, a multitude of different types of tree care needs.

As I said in my OP - our niche is tight areas that equip can’t get to, or massive reaches with cranes. I don’t need redwoods to use 100ton or 165ton cranes if I’m reaching 160-215’ ya silly goose. I’m no stranger to 45t’s nutted up against 6ft dbh old rock maples, that’s just not what We do anymore… If you deal with mud season like we do, separating yourself from the guys that gut up lawns with their 45t’s goes a lonngggg way.


Doing about 220’ here, picking out in that woodline. Driveway held up like a champ.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Biologist David Douglas sent a matchbox full of Douglas fir seeds to England in 1827. Sequoia arrived in 1853. There are areas in UK with climate and growing conditions equal to their native. The difference is there is less growing space and more people so it didn’t take long for the giant trees to become too big

 

[Phil]

The fact you reimbursed folks for the dog day care...your empathy is admirable. Need more people like you.
With the frequency of crane use, have you considered purchasing your own rig? If you have considered it, can you share the reasons why you still rent?

Hope the new company works well with you.

 

[Steve Connally]

I think I'm the only one confused here but were you asking them to cover your expenses because they had issues? I'm a crane owner who subs exclusively. When people cancel me at the last minute and I can verify the emergency then I don't charge them. If they run a poorly organized business and they messed up and try to cancel me then I bill them. If I break down, I don't expect people to ask me to cover their expenses for mobilization. If I'm late maybe I cut them a break on the billing but I can't help mechanical and I'm not sure how I'd respond but being asked to cover mobilizations costs for the company I was working for. I loose my days pay, the repair, and have to pay the company that hired me? Thats a huge gamble to take on as a small biz owner. I see your point but somehow I feel like we've gotta cut each other some slack. Business is awful. I worked wednesday for the first time in 3 weeks. I drove the crane from the job site to the Kenworth dealer for a mechanical issue. I had to cancel Thursday, today and now monday because they havent even looked at the truck. After all is said and done (because of other factors) I will have worked one day in 6 weeks. Should I have to cover those other companies because I broke down. Maybe it's different because it's ahed of time but if you called me.........after I had heeded your way and called and said my equipment is broke down on the interstate I have to cancel you......I'd ask for verification and might have asked you to cover travel. I Also may not have. But if you said you cant because this was how you were gonna feed your family this week I'd have likely said----is there anything I can do to help you. IDK. I might totally be taking what you're saying the wrong way and if so I apologize.

 

[CRTCNH]

The fact you reimbursed folks for the dog day care...your empathy is admirable. Need more people like you.
With the frequency of crane use, have you considered purchasing your own rig? If you have considered it, can you share the reasons why you still rent?

Hope the new company works well with you.

Thanks man. We have considered it. If we got busier on the crane side, in the niche that we operate in, I would consider it.

I think I'm the only one confused here but were you asking them to cover your expenses because they had issues? I'm a crane owner who subs exclusively. When people cancel me at the last minute and I can verify the emergency then I don't charge them. If they run a poorly organized business and they messed up and try to cancel me then I bill them. If I break down, I don't expect people to ask me to cover their expenses for mobilization. If I'm late maybe I cut them a break on the billing but I can't help mechanical and I'm not sure how I'd respond but being asked to cover mobilizations costs for the company I was working for. I loose my days pay, the repair, and have to pay the company that hired me? Thats a huge gamble to take on as a small biz owner. I see your point but somehow I feel like we've gotta cut each other some slack. Business is awful. I worked wednesday for the first time in 3 weeks. I drove the crane from the job site to the Kenworth dealer for a mechanical issue. I had to cancel Thursday, today and now monday because they havent even looked at the truck. After all is said and done (because of other factors) I will have worked one day in 6 weeks. Should I have to cover those other companies because I broke down. Maybe it's different because it's ahed of time but if you called me.........after I had heeded your way and called and said my equipment is broke down on the interstate I have to cancel you......I'd ask for verification and might have asked you to cover travel. I Also may not have. But if you said you cant because this was how you were gonna feed your family this week I'd have likely said----is there anything I can do to help you. IDK. I might totally be taking what you're saying the wrong way and if so I apologize.

No worries at all Steve. IMHO, for me, I think what it broke down to was an inability to take responsibility within a timeframe where it mattered most. Accidents happen, shit breaks, it's the nature of the business. In the 12 years (I know some of you have decades on me) I've been in the industry, everyone (for the most part) has always been respectfully understanding of that. If it's my mistake - hey, let me do what I can to help you, and visa-versa. No one is perfect, and no operation doesn't have it's fair share of hurdles. I can't tell you the amount of times this has resulted in cutting a deal to one another to maintain a professional relationship. If I'm contracted, and my (X/Y/Z) shits the bed on my way to the job site where they're counting on me. You can be sure I'm loosing that day of wages for myself, and paying for the repair, that's my responsibility. But I can also promise you, once I'm back up and running, I'll always try to find a way to make it up to them. Even if I can't do it right away, I'll make sure to cut them a deal when I can.

 

[Al_trees]

To each their own on how things get handled. For me going an extra step here, making some extra effort there, never hurt. However I’m also fortunate to have zero problem telling someone to f**k off.

As far as trees go - yeah typically on any given weekday there is 5-8 tree co’s working within a 30mi radius. About 30% of them running crane “usually”… you hit the nail on the head - rural, heavily forested area, a multitude of different types of tree care needs.

As I said in my OP - our niche is tight areas that equip can’t get to, or massive reaches with cranes. I don’t need redwoods to use 100ton or 165ton cranes if I’m reaching 160-215’ ya silly goose. I’m no stranger to 45t’s nutted up against 6ft dbh old rock maples, that’s just not what We do anymore… If you deal with mud season like we do, separating yourself from the guys that gut up lawns with their 45t’s goes a lonngggg way.


Doing about 220’ here, picking out in that woodline. Driveway held up like a champ.
View attachment 96952

Im surprised you haven't run into more problems with driveways and that thing. People sometimes get all weird about my bucket truck. Keep up the good work dude.

 

[evo]

Just let it go. Worse case they lied to you. Best case they are being honest and trying to get the rig out the door for you. Could they have done better? Probably should have called you that morning but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been late because of an equipment/truck issue and I’m scrabbling to get it operational to make it to the job.
Having a honest conversation is something else entirely, just say ‘hey a call would have been nice we deployed and that cost us x$ and the customer x$. Some of that would have been less with a simple call’
No need to demand money to cover costs.
Think of it as the shoe on the other foot. Is your client demanding reimbursement? I specifically have it in my contract where I’m not liable for delays.

 

[Steve Connally]

Thanks man. We have considered it. If we got busier on the crane side, in the niche that we operate in, I would consider it.



No worries at all Steve. IMHO, for me, I think what it broke down to was an inability to take responsibility within a timeframe where it mattered most. Accidents happen, shit breaks, it's the nature of the business. In the 12 years (I know some of you have decades on me) I've been in the industry, everyone (for the most part) has always been respectfully understanding of that. If it's my mistake - hey, let me do what I can to help you, and visa-versa. No one is perfect, and no operation doesn't have it's fair share of hurdles. I can't tell you the amount of times this has resulted in cutting a deal to one another to maintain a professional relationship. If I'm contracted, and my (X/Y/Z) shits the bed on my way to the job site where they're counting on me. You can be sure I'm loosing that day of wages for myself, and paying for the repair, that's my responsibility. But I can also promise you, once I'm back up and running, I'll always try to find a way to make it up to them. Even if I can't do it right away, I'll make sure to cut them a deal when I can.

Totally reasonable outlook. I agree with you. I try to live by the same rules.

 

[Sfoppema]

Anytime you're subbing to someone you're taking on a fair bit of liability. I sub machines out to people with operators and I also sub machines in with operators. It's not my duty as a sub to make money for anyone, but I will show up when I say I will.

I also live in new england and it was below zero in MA essentially M-W this week. We were supposed to have a 60t rental which I canceled a week ahead of time. Why? Because equipment would malfunction, humans can't function properly/safely, clients cars won't start and other miserable out of the ordinary shit would also likely happen. It's too much liability for me to assume for a day that i know is going to be a shit show...

I had a sub job scheduled on Tuesday and I followed up with the company twice giving them the opportunity to reschedule. I always tell people its fine to reschedule but once the machine shows up I'm getting my 8 hour minimum....

So its a combination on things but only you can protect your money... a follow up call the night before never hurts when there are other factors to consider. I've never had a client complain about a reschedule due to dangerous working conditions.


As for that company, I doubt they make any money doing tree work especially if they have union operators. Running big equipment they want the construction work. 2500 or 3500 a day with a 100t plus a union operator probably doesn't even pay the bills...
Even though it's "not right", you have to consider that you need them way more than they need you. They also probably have much bigger fish to fry and worries of their own.... its not right to leave people hanging but it's hard to be perfect particularly when the cause is clearly weather related/out of both of your hands..

Ive always been "the little guy" that no one cares about. It took awhile to sink in and hurt at first but it's saved me a lot of time ever since/ it's a great lesson that everyone should learn...

 

[evo]

Even though it's "not right", you have to consider that you need them way more than they need you. They also probably have much bigger fish to fry and worries of their own.... its not right to leave people hanging but it's hard to be perfect particularly when the cause is clearly weather related/out of both of your hands..

Exactly this!