Comparing Rock Climbing and Tree Climbing as it relates to rope handling best practices.

Zebco Kid

Zebco Kid

Branched out member
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Good morning.

A couple weeks back I asked a question about transferring from rope to rope in order to climb a redwood tree. The situation was the I didn’t have a long enough rope.

Thank you for all of the great information and advice. I will be with professional instructors who I’ve climbed with regularly , and they have what is required in terms of rope.

My question here is the comparison to rock climbing. In that sport, they have “pitches,” which indicates the number of lengths of rope required to reach a particular location. In settings these pitches up, the rope no longer touches the ground.

Why is it that this practice is acceptable/deployed in rock climbing, but is considered dangerous/reckless/poor technique in tree climbing?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Kindly,

David
 
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Your comparing Rock climbing to rec tree climbing. First off, There's a big difference between rec climbing and production climbing on the job tree work.
I think you need to be more specific with your question too. Because I'm not sure exactly what your asking but for starters, you can technically do anything you want to do in a recreational setting and "best practices " are more like opinions. There's no rules and regs. Sometimes rock climbers have to do really sketchy things to get back down off a big wall because of rope length and what not. Tons of deaths and accidents happen on their rappels more than their ascents.
We normally pitch our lines above us whether from the ground or in the tree, then climb to that anchor and repitch. They climb above their anchor and clip in or set protection as they reach the anchor.
I can go on and on about the differences and why we should not compare these rope disciplines but you can also find this info in the search archives too.

I think your referring to switching over to another rope while aloft.
You can do itt if you want to but it won't be fun and you might find it more challenging than you thought if your 200ft up and happen to not have any branches to stand on. When Rico recommends having a rope that is of proper length, I would take his advice. He's an amazing climber that climbs those trees at the those heights all the time.
The recommendation you were given was to keep you safe. It was definitely the better choice to have the longer rope.
 
Rock climbers regularly fall. They don't want to hit the ground. They use what amounts to a bungy cord for a rope that absorbs the fall, with an elongation of 30-40%. You don't want to fall on a static arborist rope. They don't climb ropes, they climb rocks. We climb ropes. One is pure sport, one is not. There isn't a whole lot of similarities between one or the other.
 
Sport climbing can involve top roping with a belayer down below or climbing a route putting in protection along the way up, with a belayer down below but you always have a belayer and a dynamic rope (springy) to catch your fall. Your partner then follows your route up, cleaning pro for use in the next pitch. Sometimes both folks are moving up at the same time, until you run outta pro to put in.
Multi pitch rappels down where you are more than one rope length from the deck (remember the knot 3 feet or so above the end of your rope) involves setting up rappel stations and is done with great care - many many accidents happen when going down as stated above (you might want to look up Accidents in North American Mountaineering published yearly for horror stories we try and learn from).
Tree rec climbing is different than occupational work climbing but if you're using the same gear, you should follow ANSI Z (i.e. don't ever fall). The ropes are not dynamic (big ouch at the stop) and you don't have a belayer, so the impact is likely to be a doozie. Alpine ropes we use are 60 meter ropes min.
The issue I see in occupational tree work is being able to get down pronto like if something bad happens (say even you get stuck in an arm or side by a broken limb and are bleeding like no tomorrow). You don't want to be fiddling but be able to get down pronto - By Yourself. Little in treework at height is done with partners as in alpine climbing.
There used to be lots of diagrams and stuff in technical brochures put out by Petzl - maybe they have this info still on their European sport site somewhere. There's lots of rock books and alpine books out there - maybe spend some time at an REI if you have one near you doing some reading?
My two cents at coffee this morning. Cheers and stay safe out there.
 
Anytime someone can't be lowered/ self- lower to the ground, there are higher stakes.

My friend was hurt in a lead fall where he flipped over backwards while 3 pitches up in Yosemite.
Split his helmet and scalp.

I suspect he was less than half a rope length up pitch 3, allowing him to be lowered back to the belay anchor, then helped to the ground, possibly with multiple lowers to lower belay stations.

His experienced partner(s) had him to emergency services in the Valley in under 30 minutes.
 
Shadowscape said:
Rock climbers regularly fall. They don't want to hit the ground. They use what amounts to a bungy cord for a rope that absorbs the fall, with an elongation of 30-40%. You don't want to fall on a static arborist rope. They don't climb ropes, they climb rocks. We climb ropes. One is pure sport, one is not. There isn't a whole lot of similarities between one or the other.
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I guess one could argue that rock climbing can be a profession aside from elite athlete/influencers... There's a whole guiding industry that promotes certifications and follows international standards. Idk UIAA and AMGA come to mind. Also professionals rock climber rescue teams like YOSAR or rock climbers for science research. It's an interesting discussion, I think a fair bit comes down to people being reasonable. To me, it would be unreasonable to bring 3 or 4 thousand feet of rope to climb some of these rock faces, or 8 thousand feet/360lbs of rope if you want to rappel in one go lol. Seems they've just accepted the added level of risk.. To be fair if your rec climbing on trees and feel comfortable with those added risks then go for it but trees aren't that big (relatively) so why chance it really. People that climb trees for hunting probably stretch safety margins a bit more to stay ultralight in the back country. My old friend is paralyzed for life from falling out of a tree stand. Idk I'm just rambling..
 
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Cliff_Towle said:
Whole trees can fail anywhere from the ground on up. Never seen a mountain fall over. Use a long rope. Good to get to the ground when you need to.
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How do you use a long rope to get to the ground when your tree fails at the roots/base? Mountains don't fall over but they do experience gigantic rock failures pretty frequently and small rock failures much more frequently. Especially if you add in events such as earthquakes and avalanches. One of my friends had his pelvis/hips shattered from a rock failure.
 
southsoundtree said:
Anytime someone can't be lowered/ self- lower to the ground, there are higher stakes.

My friend was hurt in a lead fall where he flipped over backwards while 3 pitches up in Yosemite.
Split his helmet and scalp.

I suspect he was less than half a rope length up pitch 3, allowing him to be lowered back to the belay anchor, then helped to the ground, possibly with multiple lowers to lower belay stations.

His experienced partner(s) had him to emergency services in the Valley in under 30 minutes.
Click to expand...
Risk profile changes so much depending where you are (quick call in on Spot cuz I turned my ankle!), to full on alpine epics where “Yer On Yer Own Jack”! Can a chopper get in all weather? No! In any case it’s managing risk - with more experience you can judge it better but objective hazard - can’t eliminate it. One reason why I like tree work so much, much less objective hazard (given care about tree condition etc). I’ll close out by asking - have you asked “What if?” Any possible scenario? What about Donald Rumsfeld’s Unknown Unknowns? There’s Bold Pilots and Old Pilots but no Old Bold Pilots . . . Cheers! Families are great to come back to.
 
Zebco Kid said:
Good morning.

A couple weeks back I asked a question about transferring from rope to rope in order to climb a redwood tree. The situation was the I didn’t have a long enough rope.

Thank you for all of the great information and advice. I will be with professional instructors who I’ve climbed with regularly , and they have what is required in terms of rope.

My question here is the comparison to rock climbing. In that sport, they have “pitches,” which indicates the number of lengths of rope required to reach a particular location. In settings these pitches up, the rope no longer touches the ground.

Why is it that this practice is acceptable/deployed in rock climbing, but is considered dangerous/reckless/poor technique in tree climbing?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Kindly,

David
Click to expand...

To be clear your question is "Why is multipitch climbing considered unacceptable in tree climbing?".

The answer is tree climbers rec and work are constantly setting new pitches. Every time a tree climber advances their life support system they are creating a new pitch. In rock climbing the number of pitches going up has to do with the anatomy of the route. It is the same in tree climbing, how or where a climber sets a new anchor is dictated by the tree's structure and/or the climber's goals on the climb.

In work climbing the climber should always have a quick route to the ground, one pitch to the ground. Climbers may disagree but I've rec climbed multipitch climbs with ropes not always to the ground for many years and will continue to do so as long as I'm climbing trees. Anyone can come up with a laundry list of why no one should do that, wasps, "dangerous wildlife" etc etc. Same with solo climbing, another can of worms. Either way I wouldn't be a climber if I didn't do multipitch rope off the ground tree climbing.

At a certain point a semi-self taught rec climber needs to incrementally form their own approach to climbing based on their experience. It's very simple: what works well for you and what keeps you safe. You're in charge, it's your job to make smart decisions while you're setting ropes and climbing. You can sit in a room with 25 of the best tree climbers in the world and each of them can make you wrong no matter how hard you try to follow "the rules". There are fundamentals and then there is learning to be a good and safe climber, it is a Venn diagram without total overlap.
-AJ
 
And I realize what you're really asking is (I think): "Why can't I climb trees with short ropes?". The answer is you can but there are risks associated with that. The most mundane is "Oops, I thought I could advance above my initial TIP with a 30' "long lanayard" and say a 15' short lanyard. Probably not if you're in PNW old-growth. In rock climbing and back country hiking there is a fetish around minimalism that at the extreme end can be dangerous. Especially when applied to tree climbing. If you're hiking distances to trees or doing extended back country camping and climbing you really do have to make choices about what you are going to carry. Too much adherence to the cult of minimalism can leave a climber without options/plan B when things get screwy in a tree, and they do. Don't let a rock climber shame you about the weight of your gear ;-)
-AJ
 
Another thought just came to mind. Most multi pitch rock climbing is a team of two people where they are both ascending the rock face. Clear communication is critical for safety and even short distances can impede commands especially on windy days. There are flawed rope tugging methods and now days hand radios are becoming more common but it is historically part of the rock climbing's evolution.
 
Zebco Kid said:
Why is it that this practice is acceptable/deployed in rock climbing, but is considered dangerous/reckless/poor technique in tree climbing?
Click to expand...
I would say this: that it would be impossible to rock climb certain routes without using multi-pitch techniques. No one is lead climbing with a 1200' rope, so out of necessity, multi-pitch climbing is the only way. And even with shorter climbs, rope weight and drag may create more of a fall risk than multi-pitching.

On the other hand, it's your duty while working in a hazardous occupation to reduce risks as much as possible - for your safety, the safety of others, the safety of property, and for the financial well-being of your enterprise - whether doing tree work or underwater welding or building a bridge. Switching over from one rope to another, or re-pitching, introduces an opportunity for errors and accidents, as does the inability to escape to the ground, that can be mitigated by using the appropriate length rope.
 
Minimalism and caving don't really mix either.
AJ, I like the word "fetish" when it comes to minimizing weight these days and "moving fast".
We asked another BC ski party one time if they noticed they had gone over some springtime snow bridges over some crevasses/ saggy bits and they were totally clueless (not roped up). Guess Spot works from inside a crevasse? :) More gear may mean slower but also may mean you can get your own self(ves) outta trouble when it does come (and it will come, sometime). Good gear selection in my mind has enough xtra bits from the Department of Redundancy Department that you can save your own butt and not depend on others, but that's just old me.
And in 40 yrs, I've never climbed rock/ alpine. waterfall ice alone, ever. Cheers.
 
Good afternoon, all.

Thank you for your generous responses to my curiosity. (Please know that a question is not a challenge. It is simply an inquiry for education purposes. One can learn through information. Or, one can learn through experience. This is a great space for the former, based on the collective latter.

My take away from the input is that multi-pitch climbing isn't done because the risk can be avoided.

Thank you.

DG
 
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