The Illusion of Safety: Safe vs. Safer vs. Safer-er

Thats cool and all. But if singing tree as an actual legal entity endorses this, how would your insurance or lawyers feel about it. So the average newby tries it and gets tangled resulting in the release of the runner and then goes head first to the ground what then? While you're being sewed the family pulls up the video for the jury and points out that your product is endorsed to be used in this manner its indefensible. Your official video of the product being used in this manner is you signing off on it. Take the zigzag. Everyone knows this thing can be used set with the wrench no problem. Why won't they say it's ok. If they don't but petal posts a video of it being used in this manner they condone it. Indefensible.

So we have had a rash of tech rescues at work lately at the shipyard. One in particular we could have flown the patient off the ship with a crane We have the gear, we have the training, we have the ability. This particular situation did not have the safety factors present to conduct a crane operation. It could have been done but the situation didn't merit the risk involved. It probably would have been just fine. Or maybe it wouldn't. It's a risk benefit analysis. The benefit didn't outweigh the risk. We chose another option.

Having said that, the choice to shock load my gear because it can handle it is a poor risk vs benefit imho. Thats just me. I respect you as a climber and an innovator. we just have different exposures and see things differently. I accept that. However, I can't see how a corporate entity can condone the risk through their silence on the matter. It seems as reckless to me as the actual act. Theres a difference between the swings and fast descents than the sudden stop and shock load of the entire system. Why try to achieve the safety factor engineered into our gear? I have done some stupid stuff with my gear for sure but I matured. I listened to professionals who showed me the risk. I took feedback from people who clearly know more than I did. I didn't block them or get my tribe to bash them in my defense. I certainly didn't continue to think I know everything. Humility goes a long way when its a risk of life or limb.

I think we shall agree to see things differently. Good dialogue and I always admire your objectivity Kevin.
 
moss said:
"When we start to believe that someone else is more concerned about our own safety than we are, we become complacent, and then, we get careless", Quote from Mike Rowe. I have no idea what he is talking about. Every tree worker knows they are the primary caretaker of their own safety. Mike can get off the rails at times. He's hinting at "nanny state" political ideas, nothing to do with a tree worker's actual practice of managing risk in the workplace. If this is a discussion about OSHA and regulatory overreach, that's something else, now so politicized it's barely worth getting into.
-AJ
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I like Rowe a lot, but you nailed that point.
If we believe we have to routinely take risks beyond what we're comfortable with and below what we'd accept, just to earn a paycheck, then we've set the bar too low in this profession.
I think we have a good model. We have the "Zee" which is written in blood by people who know what they are talking about, even if we don't have unanimous agreement on each point. Let's stay the course and make the rules our own, and fight to enforce them.

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moss said:
The reasonable approach to one-handing (what BEH2202 used as an example) is what we know: when a climber is one-handing they've just taken away significant control of the saw, they're exposing themselves to a much higher level of risk. So a wise guideline would say: "One-handing a top handled saw should not be implemented as a regular practice for climbing arborists. The climber's ability to control the saw can be greatly compromised. There are unique scenarios where one-handing a top handled saw can be done safely or makes sense.

-AJ
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I call this a managed exception.


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treebing said:
Are you guys worried about Travor, or worried about people imitating him?
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I'm not worried about him ;-) it's his job to take care of himself. Anyone who posts stuff either out of the range of accepted practices or that otherwise experienced climbers don't understand gets called out/ridiculed/attacked.
 
moss said:
I'm not worried about him ;-) it's his job to take care of himself. Anyone who posts stuff either out of the range of accepted practices or that otherwise experienced climbers don't understand gets called out/ridiculed/attacked.
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Not necessarily the case here. I can’t link the posts but there have been ones that have clearly shown the improper use of gear or knots mistied ect. I don’t post out of misunderstanding or jealousy. It’s the response to said posts that resonate. I’m totally secure in my mediocrity. What chaps my behind is the sherrill logo on those pics Seriously, police your cash cow.
 
treebing said:

this is the way I usually flip. I try to stay tied in twice for the most part. travor does consistently use his lanyard. when cutting. he wears ppe. been improving over time. he shares his fuck ups as well. I dont know the guy.
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That was super fun. Did not see anything not safe. I think this idea that new climbers will do incredibly stupid stuff that they don't understand because they saw someone do something super cool is vastly overrated. I see it as inspiration, everyone picks what inspires them. It doesn't mean they'll go out and do something stupid.
 
Also any opposition to the said posts is met with hostility no matter how constructive it is. I’m certain when I start posting my adventure with the mek I’ll be called out on stuff. I can promise you the response won’t be I’m Steve Connally so you can kiss my backside. It’s all in how you deal with those people
 
moss said:
That was super fun. Did not see anything not safe. I think this idea that new climbers will do incredibly stupid stuff that they don't understand because they saw someone do something super cool is vastly overrated. I see it as inspiration, everyone picks what inspires them. It doesn't mean they'll go out and do something stupid.
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Not always for sure. But is 10 out of 10000 acceptable from a litigation standpoint?
 
Steve Connally said:
Not necessarily the case here. I can’t link the posts but there have been ones that have clearly shown the improper use of gear or knots mistied ect. I don’t post out of misunderstanding or jealousy. It’s the response to said posts that resonate. I’m totally secure in my mediocrity. What chaps my behind is the sherrill logo on those pics Seriously, police your cash cow.
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Anyone who posts photos or video gets critiqued. That's what happens. The thing to do is contact Sherrill and have a discussion with them. That's a lot of work ;-)
 
moss said:
Anyone who posts photos or video gets critiqued. That's what happens. The thing to do is contact Sherrill and have a discussion with them. That's a lot of work ;-)
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It’s been done many times and they poo pooed the people who contacted them. Tim is the safety guy there and he knows his stuff so denial is accepting or condoning.
 
I’m
treebing said:
Are you guys worried about Travor, or worried about people imitating him?
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I’m worried about the representation of me lumped in with him as a fellow climber. He doesn’t represent how I operate. I think they could police their guy a little better. Ask mark c about how careful he has to be with what he posts or how he conducts himself in public media. I’ve seen him post things very carefully due to the nature of his connections and sponsorship. They thing they are trying to avoid is “the STIHL guy did it so it must be ok”!
 
Here's an extreme example, and I think why we have to live with opposing ideas. The JohnnyPro giant crane swing in Cleveland. Any climber who watched that video was thrilled to the core. Or if not, barely alive ;-) I have yet to hear of any tree climber who's done a giant crane swing since. I was inspired, I have no desire to do a giant crane swing. TreeStuff sponsored? There wasn't much public discussion about what was behind that escapade.
 
I wonder if wing suit makers have to worry about telling their customers to not fly too close to the wall. Or if the makers of rock shoes should tell Alex honnald to please climb with an f-ing rope. You climb trees with ropes and chainsaws and make massive cuts on unpredictable wood. that's a career choice for jackasses. Are you concerned with Sherrill giving this guy swag in exchange for lots of #Sherrill posts and hits? you can't deny Travors skill with a go pro either. he takes genuinely good pictures.
 
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