Enough of TCIA's unethical practices

Heres all the specific coverage on the safebloc from the article, as well as the silly way the safeblock was used. In case theres any legal issues with posting this, this is a TCIA article starting on page 24, written by Phillip Kelley.

There is a Control to this testing; the Trex 12 strand. Which happens to be the only sling in which the safebloc and other X rigging products should not be used with. There is a WLL of 2700 pounds, stated on all websites that sell it. So if he didnt find it, he obviously didnt look very hard. I do not believe that webbing slings girth hitched on, have a very high WLL, especially with a sharp bend on the girth, as well as on the rock exotica enforcer (i think thats what thats called). The article should have never been posted. He says the testing is not completed, yet he is sending it out on a "trusted" voice of the tree care industry. I do believe this was a shot at progression. I actually have been to seminars of his, and he led my favorite of them all. The history of tree climbing is awesome and he does a fantastic job keeping everyone interested as well as informed. And thats why this article kinda sucked for me to read. He is a good speaker, and you can learn alot from him. But this blatant attack at progression, with no real control in testing isnt what i expected to read when i saw it was by him.

Im going to stop now because i can go all night.
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Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
 
Take it up with TCIA. Having written for them I didn't find it edited to an extreme. I was surprised that it wasn't really touched at all. But when it comes to a company trying to promote a product then it can be misconstrued when such space is given over to one company. Is this a matter of more savvy marketing on Altec's behalf? Too often smaller companies won't spend the money and are under the "Field of Dreams" illusion of build it and they will come. Don has a job of filling that magazine with useful articles that come from the industry players themselves. That is an unenviable task. We are not a bunch of frustrated writers looking for an outlet for our imaginings or experiences.

Before crying wolf, state your case to them and then talk to the other companies to see if they want to publish something.
 
Take it up with TCIA. Having written for them I didn't find it edited to an extreme. I was surprised that it wasn't really touched at all. But when it comes to a company trying to promote a product then it can be misconstrued when such space is given over to one company. Is this a matter of more savvy marketing on Altec's behalf? Too often smaller companies won't spend the money and are under the "Field of Dreams" illusion of build it and they will come. Don has a job of filling that magazine with useful articles that come from the industry players themselves. That is an unenviable task. We are not a bunch of frustrated writers looking for an outlet for our imaginings or experiences.

Before crying wolf, state your case to them and then talk to the other companies to see if they want to publish something.

Firstly, @Gerasimek gave the TCIA an opportunity to retract. Have They?

Secondly, some things are too blatant to really deal with. Nobody does that sh*t with a Safebloc. It's pure embarrassment for the TCIA to retract on that level because they are essentially admitting that they were incapable or unwilling to review the article prior to publication. A cursory review by someone in touch with the current state of rigging was all that was needed to spot the systemic shortcomings in that article. A letter to the editor cannot condense a reply to that much misinformation.
 
Heres all the specific coverage on the safebloc from the article, as well as the silly way the safeblock was used. In case theres any legal issues with posting this, this is a TCIA article starting on page 24, written by Phillip Kelley.

There is a Control to this testing; the Trex 12 strand. Which happens to be the only sling in which the safebloc and other X rigging products should not be used with. There is a WLL of 2700 pounds, stated on all websites that sell it. So if he didnt find it, he obviously didnt look very hard. I do not believe that webbing slings girth hitched on, have a very high WLL, especially with a sharp bend on the girth, as well as on the rock exotica enforcer (i think thats what thats called). The article should have never been posted. He says the testing is not completed, yet he is sending it out on a "trusted" voice of the tree care industry. I do believe this was a shot at progression. I actually have been to seminars of his, and he led my favorite of them all. The history of tree climbing is awesome and he does a fantastic job keeping everyone interested as well as informed. And thats why this article kinda sucked for me to read. He is a good speaker, and you can learn alot from him. But this blatant attack at progression, with no real control in testing isnt what i expected to read when i saw it was by him.

Im going to stop now because i can go all night.
ecab071dfb5840e2b56539289288ee7d.jpg
314c6623571c3fab44140775a6bd9360.jpg
c4b8f05158a141ddc5cf7942266668b5.jpg
bd1388e7ccb90f020480e815f87a3b61.jpg
6b6da3252d22ef9f0ad34258c6d9f117.jpg
39be1f68e7c351c4e13884a7f98f8ea0.jpg


Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
Wonder how come Sherrill and TS used to sell them with the Trex and now they are saying not to be using it in conjunction with rings and the safebloc ? I have 8 X ring slings and my safebloc has a T. rex 3/4 sling, I've never overloaded it and is holding up. I snugged it up as best as possible on the safe bloc, so Bonner send me some tenex to replace my Trex ! Lol @bonner1040 @theXman
 
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A letter to the editor cannot condense a reply to that much misinformation.

What does this mean? You won't write anything, because you can't say everything? BS excuse for not trying imo. Don's printed some letters of mine that were long, because they were responding to other letters that were long, and wrong. "Just don't write a novel" was all the limitation I got. If you feel so strongly, chill your emotions enough to focus your thoughts and communicate them through the magazine.
 
What does this mean? You won't write anything, because you can't say everything? BS excuse for not trying imo. Don's printed some letters of mine that were long, because they were responding to other letters that were long, and wrong. "Just don't write a novel" was all the limitation I got. If you feel so strongly, chill your emotions enough to focus your thoughts and communicate them through the magazine.


I notice a pattern in these two TCIA articles that is incompatible with my values with regards to the level of scholarship and the preferential treatment of large scale commercialism without apparent restraint.

The pervasive issues in this article do make it too awkward to comment on. They wasted our time, and may have negatively affected @theXman 's reputation for making simple, bombproof, safe, and efficient rigging hardware. Additionally, I would not write anything in a TCIA publication at this time because I do not wish my scholarship to be associated with the TCIA, due solely to the poor impression I have of these two articles.

I did appreciate the TCIA crane use best practices guide...
 
I notice a pattern in these two TCIA articles that is incompatible with my values with regards to the level of scholarship and the preferential treatment of large scale commercialism without apparent restraint.
The pervasive issues in this article do make it too awkward to comment on. ... I would not write anything in a TCIA publication at this time because I do not wish my scholarship to be associated with the TCIA, due solely to the poor impression I have of these two articles.

When you can chill your emotions, contribute! Those 2 articles cannot outweigh all the good the magazine does.

Yes, corporate interests dominate our industry. Welcome to the real world. Big Iron grinds Biology into the earth, at every turn. Deal with it!
I spent 7 years on the A300 committee trying to raise the industry standards bar, only to see ISA and other corporations keep it firmly bolted to floor, while Bartlett twisted the wording to suit their sales pitches, and increase their riches, the sonsawitches. I could either respond by moping and complaining anonymously online, or by countering their positions and hoping that enough people with brains and morals pay attention and catch on.

You are no fool and I trust you can conquer your offended feelings and do something about it.
 
When you can chill your emotions, contribute! Those 2 articles cannot outweigh all the good the magazine does.

Yes, corporate interests dominate our industry. Welcome to the real world. Big Iron grinds Biology into the earth, at every turn. Deal with it!
I spent 7 years on the A300 committee trying to raise the industry standards bar, only to see ISA and other corporations keep it firmly bolted to floor, while Bartlett twisted the wording to suit their sales pitches, and increase their riches, the sonsawitches. I could either respond by moping and complaining anonymously online, or by countering their positions and hoping that enough people with brains and morals pay attention and catch on.

You are no fool and I trust you can conquer your offended feelings and do something about it.

It's not moping. It's not a complaint. It's me, noticing repeatedly poor scholarship. My profile is not anonymous. Anyone who wants to can figure out who I am.
 
So you "notice poor scholarship", but do absolutely nothing. And then, offer the weakest of defenses for your abdication. If it's not a complaint, what is it, professor?
It's knowledgeable lurkers like you that create an intellectual void in this industry, which intellectually and morally bankrupt corporate interests gleefully exploit, at your/our expense!

I recommend you grow a pair, get your wits about you, and act! Or stop digging--your hole is halfway to China.
 
Heres all the specific coverage on the safebloc from the article, as well as the silly way the safeblock was used. In case theres any legal issues with posting this, this is a TCIA article starting on page 24, written by Phillip Kelley.

There is a Control to this testing; the Trex 12 strand. Which happens to be the only sling in which the safebloc and other X rigging products should not be used with. There is a WLL of 2700 pounds, stated on all websites that sell it. So if he didnt find it, he obviously didnt look very hard. I do not believe that webbing slings girth hitched on, have a very high WLL, especially with a sharp bend on the girth, as well as on the rock exotica enforcer (i think thats what thats called). The article should have never been posted. He says the testing is not completed, yet he is sending it out on a "trusted" voice of the tree care industry. I do believe this was a shot at progression. I actually have been to seminars of his, and he led my favorite of them all. The history of tree climbing is awesome and he does a fantastic job keeping everyone interested as well as informed. And thats why this article kinda sucked for me to read. He is a good speaker, and you can learn alot from him. But this blatant attack at progression, with no real control in testing isnt what i expected to read when i saw it was by him.

Im going to stop now because i can go all night.
ecab071dfb5840e2b56539289288ee7d.jpg
314c6623571c3fab44140775a6bd9360.jpg
c4b8f05158a141ddc5cf7942266668b5.jpg
bd1388e7ccb90f020480e815f87a3b61.jpg
6b6da3252d22ef9f0ad34258c6d9f117.jpg
39be1f68e7c351c4e13884a7f98f8ea0.jpg


Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
I just received my copy Friday and read it this morning, yes kind of contradicting some info Phil spoke about that the TCIA expo in Baltimore, why would they use a webbing sling like in the pic with the safebloc? He had some really good numbers at the tree expo class on blocks and rings, I wish if he was on the buzz could post them. I too have the t Rex sling in most of my X rigging rings and safebloc , and have loaded them with some large maple pieces to see what they can hold, I inspect and keep an eye on all my rigging gear, haven't noticed at stretch at all. Your right why would they post that article if all the testings not 100% complete ? Missing a lot of good facts in that article, and Xman has done some real world field testing, I mean look at some of his or @Pfanner man videos! Real world usage of Xmans products ! I was kind of dissapointed with the article as well. Just puts doubt in people's minds that haven't actually used them ! I for one use the rings and safeblocs for everything, hardly reach for a block anymore unless it's huge wood.
 
When the safeblock was released, i thought it had a rope style sling...a small nylon style girth hitch webbing? Really? Looked waaay small when i checked out the article after seeing this thread.
 
Respectfully, @guymayor ,

So you "notice poor scholarship", but do absolutely nothing.

I noticed poor scholarship and notified my tree work community, that I noticed that. Hopefully, my community is empowered by this information. #notnothing

And then, offer the weakest of defenses for your abdication.

Implicit in this sentence is that I am obligated, and perhaps solely so, to patch up this issue. I did not create the issue. Now that you know about this issue, are you not as obligated as I am (if we *were* obligated...) to resolve it? Then, to what extent/by what path would we be obligated? Thar be rabbit hole, matey.

If it's not a complaint, what is it, professor?

Eh, complaining is for the weak and subservient. Sometimes, noticing information leads to others noticing it, then conferring their own beliefs and value systems on it. I do not need to argue much with the article content - it argues against itself sufficiently. I, and others, can notice the shortcomings and leave space for the disseminators to disclose the elephant in the room, if they choose to. If not, we go on without/in spite of them. I prefer to buy a safebloc, or be paid to test and write up something systematic, rather than submit a complaint to a publication of apparently evolving impact. It's more satisfying.

It's knowledgeable lurkers like you that create an intellectual void in this industry, which intellectually and morally bankrupt corporate interests gleefully exploit, at your/our expense!

I'd participate for pay, under conditions of bias disclosure, operating budget, peer review, and intellectual freedom. Let's be real, the industry created the void for this article, not me. Why fight uphill on that turf? Create new turf man.

I recommend you grow a pair, get your wits about you, and act! Or stop digging--your hole is halfway to China.

What you call growing a pair, I feel would be more like hog-tieing a pair and handing over the slack. The article does not get to segue clear over into an alleged hole that I'm digging. The article is still there.

Let's refocus on the article.
 
:coffe:

Phillip Kelley just wrote this in the June TCIA issue, page 24, five months after Rick Howland wrote his Altec unit article:

http://tcia.org/TCI-publications/tc...dex.html?doc=566C52BF40B2968FF09B5B094B110EFF

John David Driver just posted this on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BU0gdALFeWD/

@theXman, @Gerasimek - they are not your circus, not your monkeys.

The following is a reply directly from Phillip Kelley the author of the article. He asked me to post it as he chooses not to be a contributor to online forums as it can be time consuming. I put his words in red so that all would understand I am quoting an e email he sent me directly. My comment are in black at the end.


Thank you all for your feedback and responses. I always learn something from feedback in whatever form it comes in. I would like to clarify a few points so we can continue this discussion in a positive way

The picture of the sling being used on the Safebloc was only 1 of the configurations used for attachment. As stated in the article the drops that referenced in the article and on which the data was based were done with a 3/4 inch tRex spliced to the safe bloc and performed on a drop tower. I apologize for this picture being used and therefore misleading people to believe that this is how all the testing was done. I did some drops with different slings of various levels of elongation as way to test how much energy is dissipated in the sling and how it affects cycles to failure. These drops were designed to destroy hr sling not test the equipment. This specific area was not the topic of the article so I did not include it except for the the pictures which in hind site was a mistake TCIA was left to choose pictures on a criteria other than the testing referenced in the actual article. The sling failure data did not affect the information given in the article as to whether or not aerial friction affected load force.

I went to Sherrill Tree website, whom I ordered the Safebloc from and took screen shots of the product info( see below) there is no mention of WLL or the fact that the device should only be used with one specific sling construction.

cid:C80D2727-E0F6-41A7-BDEB-10B3F4433B99@localdomain

As it has been stated here and on there on line forums the Safebloc has a WWL list of 27oolb. The initial lack of information on my part did not effect the testing, nor does it effect the performance of the safe block. I mentioned it in error and again apologize. Nor was it the purpose of the article to address sling configuration and possible problems. Hence, the lack of research into that subject prior to testing.

The reason for the testing is that people I come in contact with at NATS training programs or TCC events or other things I am involved with (3-5000 + per year) asked questions about these aerial friction brakes and want more data on them. Typicaly I direct them to the manufacturers' websites to for the data they seek. Repeatedly they inform me at subsequent meetings/trainings/events that there is little to no data on line to answer their questions. That is the motive to conduct this type of testing. It is done on a completely voluntary basis with no financial influence from manufacturers, distributers or people who would benefit from the results. If anyone feels that the process is convoluted or with ill intentions, then get involved and help find solutions to the questions that end users are asking. "Remember no one is smarter than us all." and if anyone has constructive information that would prove to be helpful, please pass it along.

Respectfully,

Phillip Kelley



THESE ARE MY COMMENTS FOLLOWING

All in all I fail to see the reason for the excitement/detractors. If you disagree with some points in the article, then simply state your objections clearly and with contextual background. There is always room for discussion, disagreement and debate. In fact, I often look forward to it as it can force me to see things in a separate light or from another point of view. As Phillip stated there were some photos out of the context of the the article included. Only an apology can be offered for this oversight. In the end the pictures do not contradict the summary that the rigging wrench and the safebloc performed well within their design parameters.

The questions Phillip and I along with the other NATS Trainers are constantly asked when it comes to aerial friction devices: Does it work? (as in displace force) Does it tear up my rigging line? How does it compare to using a block? (incidentally there are the same questions we are asked about branch union rigging. (i.e no block or device at all)) Those questions were the basis for the testing. Those were the questions answered with the caveat that this was just one testing scenario performed by limited number of climbers in controlled circumstances. A necessary caveat implicit in all testing outside of normal production tree care for obvious reasons. There is no reason under normal circumstances to push the limits of any rigging system (tree included) to the edge that is often done on a drop tower or under controlled in field situations. However, doing so does glean insight and accelerate the action of the forces involved helping to answer the initial questions.

The information is then left to the reader to discern and take appropriate action as to his or her specific situation, rigging style and tolerance for risk. That is what I do. I am capable of forming my own professional judgments. I appreciate the numbers to help me do that.

Tony
 
I just read the article. I personally didn't have issues with it although, if I read it correctly basal friction was added with the AFB and the rnw. That's not reccomended practice with either device. I learned the hard way with the rnw. Both devices are meant to be used in the manner of if you can't control the load with the device itself it's not the rite device. I can't speak to the safebloc. I desheathed a teufelberger rigging rope with a porty and rnw. Not a catastrophic failure but close enough. There's a long thread on here about it. I would never drop a grand of weight into either device. Maybe I'm off track. Am I misquoting the article or did I miss something?
 
The following is a reply directly from Phillip Kelley the author of the article. He asked me to post it as he chooses not to be a contributor to online forums as it can be time consuming. I put his words in red so that all would understand I am quoting an e email he sent me directly. My comment are in black at the end.


Thank you all for your feedback and responses. I always learn something from feedback in whatever form it comes in. I would like to clarify a few points so we can continue this discussion in a positive way

The picture of the sling being used on the Safebloc was only 1 of the configurations used for attachment. As stated in the article the drops that referenced in the article and on which the data was based were done with a 3/4 inch tRex spliced to the safe bloc and performed on a drop tower. I apologize for this picture being used and therefore misleading people to believe that this is how all the testing was done. I did some drops with different slings of various levels of elongation as way to test how much energy is dissipated in the sling and how it affects cycles to failure. These drops were designed to destroy hr sling not test the equipment. This specific area was not the topic of the article so I did not include it except for the the pictures which in hind site was a mistake TCIA was left to choose pictures on a criteria other than the testing referenced in the actual article. The sling failure data did not affect the information given in the article as to whether or not aerial friction affected load force.

I went to Sherrill Tree website, whom I ordered the Safebloc from and took screen shots of the product info( see below) there is no mention of WLL or the fact that the device should only be used with one specific sling construction.

cid:C80D2727-E0F6-41A7-BDEB-10B3F4433B99@localdomain

As it has been stated here and on there on line forums the Safebloc has a WWL list of 27oolb. The initial lack of information on my part did not effect the testing, nor does it effect the performance of the safe block. I mentioned it in error and again apologize. Nor was it the purpose of the article to address sling configuration and possible problems. Hence, the lack of research into that subject prior to testing.

The reason for the testing is that people I come in contact with at NATS training programs or TCC events or other things I am involved with (3-5000 + per year) asked questions about these aerial friction brakes and want more data on them. Typicaly I direct them to the manufacturers' websites to for the data they seek. Repeatedly they inform me at subsequent meetings/trainings/events that there is little to no data on line to answer their questions. That is the motive to conduct this type of testing. It is done on a completely voluntary basis with no financial influence from manufacturers, distributers or people who would benefit from the results. If anyone feels that the process is convoluted or with ill intentions, then get involved and help find solutions to the questions that end users are asking. "Remember no one is smarter than us all." and if anyone has constructive information that would prove to be helpful, please pass it along.

Respectfully,

Phillip Kelley



THESE ARE MY COMMENTS FOLLOWING

All in all I fail to see the reason for the excitement/detractors. If you disagree with some points in the article, then simply state your objections clearly and with contextual background. There is always room for discussion, disagreement and debate. In fact, I often look forward to it as it can force me to see things in a separate light or from another point of view. As Phillip stated there were some photos out of the context of the the article included. Only an apology can be offered for this oversight. In the end the pictures do not contradict the summary that the rigging wrench and the safebloc performed well within their design parameters.

The questions Phillip and I along with the other NATS Trainers are constantly asked when it comes to aerial friction devices: Does it work? (as in displace force) Does it tear up my rigging line? How does it compare to using a block? (incidentally there are the same questions we are asked about branch union rigging. (i.e no block or device at all)) Those questions were the basis for the testing. Those were the questions answered with the caveat that this was just one testing scenario performed by limited number of climbers in controlled circumstances. A necessary caveat implicit in all testing outside of normal production tree care for obvious reasons. There is no reason under normal circumstances to push the limits of any rigging system (tree included) to the edge that is often done on a drop tower or under controlled in field situations. However, doing so does glean insight and accelerate the action of the forces involved helping to answer the initial questions.

The information is then left to the reader to discern and take appropriate action as to his or her specific situation, rigging style and tolerance for risk. That is what I do. I am capable of forming my own professional judgments. I appreciate the numbers to help me do that.

Tony
Thanks Tony for giving us Phil's reply, and your feed back, you are correct we shouldn't be pushing the rigging points to the edge and always go lighter, I do the same as I do running the crane, no one ever got hurt for lifting or lowering lighter pieces.
 

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